Likes Likes:  0
Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5
Results 61 to 71 of 71

Thread: Shotokan's Secret

  1. #61
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Princeton, New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    503
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Jeff Cook - you are secretly Him aren't you....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Cook
    To restate what I said before (and in support of Jason) the form is not learned for the form's sake, but rather to understand and own the principles. Principles are formless in application, but a representation of a principle can be expressed through forms. The bottom line is form does NOT equal principle. Principles need to be expressed (in combat) in a "free-form" or "formless" way. Coming up with multiple bunkai (which does have value) still only applies even more structure to what should be an unstructured (formless) expression of principle during combat.

    Sorry if that sounds convoluted! Structure IS good, but it must be expressed through formlessness when it is really needed, as in a life-or-death situation....

    I have a headache now.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu
    No Jeff, you have a cult following, admit it you're HIM

    Not being tense but ready. Not thinking but not dreaming. Not being set but
    flexible. Liberation from the uneasy sense of confinement. It is being
    wholly and quietly alive, aware and alert, ready for whatever may come.

    or

    When the opponent expand, I contract,
    When he contracts, I expand,
    And when there is an opportunity,
    I do not hit--it hits all by itself.

    -- Bruce Lee


    and say hi to Elvis.
    (\__/)
    (='.'=)
    (")_(")

  2. #62
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Sarasota, Florida, USA
    Posts
    733
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Good God, Margaret, you had to dig deep for that post, eh?

    I am so far from being him - I am much taller and better-looking than he was! And my accent is a little more Southern than his was too....back to my cool glass of Koolaid now....

    Jeff Cook

  3. #63
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Melissa, TX
    Posts
    3,162
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Cook
    Good God, Margaret, you had to dig deep for that post, eh?

    I am so far from being him - I am much taller and better-looking than he was! And my accent is a little more Southern than his was too....back to my cool glass of Koolaid now....

    Jeff Cook
    Jeff,

    I think she was referring to Bruce Lee and not Elvis.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  4. #64
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Sarasota, Florida, USA
    Posts
    733
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by George Kohler
    Jeff,

    I think she was referring to Bruce Lee and not Elvis.
    As was I.

    Jeff Cook

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Lindenhurst, Illinois
    Posts
    1,114
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kickin View Post
    An awful lot was read in to very little information.
    An interesting read. But very far fetched.
    I agree. We have at least 5 pages of reading and precious little information. Is there a way to save this thread off such that I could download to my computer and edit-out the banter?

    I have just completed reading Clayton, and have been using his observations to guide me with the pre-Funakoshi execution of many of the classic forms. I also have Sells, Nakayama and a few others to help me stay on an even keel, as it were. What I could use are more reflections on Clayton, both regarding his scholarship and historical accuracy as well as how his conclusions are viewed by the experienced practitioners here. For instance, I have been examining the execution of CHINTO as executed by ISSHIN-RYU. Clayton reports that one can identify a pre-Funakoshi and perhaps even a pre-Itosu execution in the ISSHIN-RYU performance. If that is true, I am having a hard time seeing the "up-the-stairs/down-the-stairs" application he mentions. Help?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    301
    Likes (received)
    23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere View Post
    For instance, I have been examining the execution of CHINTO as executed by ISSHIN-RYU. Clayton reports that one can identify a pre-Funakoshi and perhaps even a pre-Itosu execution in the ISSHIN-RYU performance. If that is true, I am having a hard time seeing the "up-the-stairs/down-the-stairs" application he mentions. Help?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Probably because he's reaching.
    Tony Urena

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Lindenhurst, Illinois
    Posts
    1,114
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyU View Post
    Probably because he's reaching.
    No arguement there. I think what I am interested to know is WHICH direction he is reaching and why. Reflecting on his premise, I have no doubt that some aspect of the material comprising the various kata derives from practical considerations such as sheltering a notable while dealing with attackers (see: NAIFANCHI). However, to me some of the conclusions seemed a bit forced as in the case of CHINTO (see: previous post). I enjoy a novel take on things and give Clayton his due. I wonder if there is a way in which one can identify the line where he stops entertaining a novel approach and starts forcing all things to comply with his premise? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  8. #68
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Posts
    40
    Likes (received)
    0

    Question confused...

    I am sorry but I am bit confused here. It seems from reading this thread (and others) that the actual bunkai of Karate kata is unknown, and people create bunkai in a manner to that which they think the various kata movements mean, not what they actually historically were as created by the founders of the various kata.

    -Hans

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Lindenhurst, Illinois
    Posts
    1,114
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Unfortunately, you may be more accurate in your assessment than you know.

    Originally, movements in such practices as CHEN TCC and TAIZU LONG FIST were merely representations of a method of using the body to which were then ascribed a number of applications. A single method such as blocking with one arm while striking with another could have dozens of uses, but the method itself, "PHOENIX BENT ARM" remains essentially the same throughout the Form tradition. Later, the use of this same method for the purposes of grappling, say, as a Rear Choke and Takedown added to the applications.

    The sanitation of OKINAWA-TE by the late FUNAKOSHI Gichin and his son to produce SHOTOKAN (aka "Karate"), a form of physical culture rather than a combative method, distorted the methods and obfuscated their applications.
    Later efforts such as the introduction of the concept of "bunkai" (lit: "analysis") by the late Miyagi Chojun attempted to reconstruct this information with varying degrees of success.

    For myself, the Korean arts have suffered under the same emasculating and reconstructive forces over the generation for varying reasons. I have come to accept that this is the nature of the MA filed. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  10. #70
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Posts
    40
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    So if that's the case, then how could one practice this art? What you think is a block might be a strike, etc. It kind of makes me think about various ancient languages. Unless there is a cipher, there is no way to know what it says. Sure you could guess and make up things, but it is definitely not the facts.

    I was reading a book called Okinawan Karate by Mark Bishop, and it seems that even the founders of systems such as Goju-ryu didn't even know what the techniques were. How could you start a system based on lack of knowledge, and your own made up ideas that are based on a movement that you have no idea as to what it applies to? I mean if you created your own movement that has application it would then be valid in a combat situation, but to take a movement that you have no idea what the application is, and then try to fit it into some type of application seems... almost self-defeating (for lack of a better word).

    The point then is, how valid is Karate... really? I mean as a historically correct system of combat that has been passed down from one generation to another tracing back to China, considering that those applications from that time are lost.

    People are always asking who trained with who so that it can be traced back to the founder, who in this case may not even have been aware as to what the techniques were themselves. How valid then is all of this lineage seeking, and what really is the point considering that the founder may not have known what the applications were themselves?

    -Hans

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Lindenhurst, Illinois
    Posts
    1,114
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Exactly, Hans, and this is where a great many people get into a quandry. The matter comes down to whether one is to consider the practice of some activity such as --in this case---- Karate to be a "martial art" or a "military science". By definition, a science is "a body of knowlege", a definition that only goes just so far in the practice of many of these asian martial traditions. My own view is that for a great many years, individuals in the West have greatly misunderstood the asian approach to pedagogy, cosmology and science. The result is that Western arrogance has allowed individuals to simply assume that references in asian practices could be interpreted as such things are viewed in the West. I can't think of any practice of asian martial traditions which has not run into trouble with this, a situation exaccerbated by the recent review by MMA people whose pre-occupation with sport applications has resulted in many enrgized but misguided discussions. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •