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Thread: go no kata reference material?

  1. #16
    MarkF Guest

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    As I said.... I'm not taking anything for granted anymore.

    Yeah, Rogier, I'm with you, I only thought that if it were performed at the Kodokan, it may be easier than one thinks, but otherwise, I know what you mean.


    Mark

  2. #17
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    found another reference:

    http://www.bestjudo.com/brcompletebookofjudo.shtml

    The Complete Book of Judo by Geof Gleeson

    The index mentions the go-no-kata

    Any chance you have this book Mark?
    Rogier van der Peijl

    REAL SCOTSMEN WEAR KILTS because sheep can hear a zipper at 500 yards!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogier
    found another reference:

    http://www.bestjudo.com/brcompletebookofjudo.shtml

    The Complete Book of Judo by Geof Gleeson

    The index mentions the go-no-kata

    Any chance you have this book Mark?
    Different beast entirely. This one is a kata that Gleeson invented himself.
    Yours in Judo,

    Brian P. Griffin

  4. #19
    MarkF Guest

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    Peter,

    I did a short search in this forum for anything on the information concerning Steven Cunngham's mention of the ASCJ, or the All Japan Seibukan Martial Arts and Ways (Dai Nippon Seibukan Budo/bugei Kai). I did find the pertinent part in the post of a late member of E-budo:

    Jujutsu and the Origins of Judo:
    A Brief History
    Andrew Yiannakis, Ph.D.
    Steve Cunningham, Ph.D.
    University of Connecticut
    Judo is an Olympic sport today and it's practiced in practically every country in the world. It was first introduced to the United States in 1903, with the establishment of a club in Seattle. President Roosevelt, one of the early American students of judo even had a section of the White House converted for judo practice sessions. There are, in the United States today, approximately 1500 amateur clubs, over 400 Armed Forces clubs, and over 200 college and high school clubs. Three organizations control sport judo in the United States, the United States Judo Association, the United States Judo Federation, and United States Judo, Inc. Each is responsible for granting belts, supervising standards and sanctioning competition. Rank is recognized by all three organizations and they all subscribe to general guidelines set out by the Kodokan in Tokyo. A fourth organization known as the American Society of Classical Judoka (which is endorsed by the Kodokan's All-Japan Seibukan Martial Arts and Ways Association) keeps alive and promotes the more traditional martial arts aspects of judo. Their emphasis is on meditation, atemi-waza (striking), kata, and on methods of advanced throwing which are considered illegal in sport judo. The president and founder of this Society was Isao Obato (now deceased), 7th dan.

    I think a small part was left out of this quote, but this is the article to which I was referring. It was on a UCONN web site, that I do remember.


    Mark

  5. #20
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    President Roosevelt, one of the early American students of judo even had a section of the White House converted for judo practice sessions.
    This would be Theodore Roosevelt, correct?
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  6. #21
    MarkF Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    This would be Theodore Roosevelt, correct?
    Correct. The year given, 1903, may be wrong, as my sources say 1904, but most who have written about the history of judo give different dates for early judo history. No dojo was established there, but in Seattle first, and then in Los Angeles. It seems many of those who played or taught judo in Seattle went to Los Angeles by 1910, or later. The first dojo in Los Angeles seems to be LA Judo Dojo, but others opened around the same time, if a little later than that.

    Hey Rogier,

    After rereading this thread you make some very good points. For example, how will anyone know what is contained in the original Go no Kata.

    I have been in contact with an Aikido student of John Cornish, a Judo Kata coach and former champion. Through this student, and according to Mr. Cornish, it seems the Go no Kata is actually just as you say, several attempts at creating one have been tried, but no one actually knows what the kata may have been, if it indeed existed, and could be the reason it is referred to, but not described, so that is a good question "How will I know if this IS the Go No Kata?" My answer: "I don't know." As Brian states, Gleason made up his own Go No Kata, as did George Parulski, and according to the late Ubaldo Alcantara, there was no Go No Kata on the C/D he received. Parulski himself, is the one who performs his made-up version.

    Good point. How would the Kodokan know, too? But if there is an extant description of the one referred to, even this may be questionable.

    Oh, and thanks for noting that "Judo Kyohan" is finally in reprint. Ed Burgess, who used to post here, is the one who bought the book on E-bay, then scanned the entire book including covers, inside and out, but on disc, it won't last much longer, probably. I will get the new edition. It should be fun to compare translations, if the translation is new. I'll check out Amazon.com.

    Thanks.

    Edit in: I have lost all contact with Ed Burgess. His email is dead, his phone disconnected. He has Parkinson's disease, so if anyone knows him, please PM or email me with a contact, if anyone has anything. He was an English teacher. Thank you in advance.


    Mark

  7. #22
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    There are only two places in Japan where the Go no kata are still trained. One of the places is where I train when I am in Japan doing Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu.

    Many people especially from America have heard of Ochiai sensie and have actually written to him requesting information or even at worst case scenario for a video of the kata! It still exists, and he apparently is only teaching it to his own students, so in depth information of this kata is for the most part unobtainable.

    The only accurate information you will find will be Anthony Cundy's essay on judoinfo.com. I have seen it practiced and I used to know an English Septugenarian who used to train with Ochiai sensei weekly. The English man doesn't come to keiko anymore, but Ochiai sensei has other students learning the kata.
    Last edited by Steve Delaney; 23rd June 2005 at 22:31.

  8. #23
    MarkF Guest

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    Steve,

    I am not agreeing or disagreeing, but as one poster did put it, it does make it plausible, and probable that this kata may have indeed changed over the years. The question isn't one of whether or not the kata existed, only one of what, exactly, the original kata of 1884 is, or was.

    Before Rogier brought it up, I hadn't given that possibility (of how would one know) any thought. If you have seen the kata, or know the waza involved, that would indeed be worth considering.

    The one who describes the kata and can back up the "kuden" description, if it is not written anywhere, perhaps a prize of a free E-budo tee shirt would be in order.

    Did I overdo the bribe? S***s and giggles and all that.


    Mark

    PS: I have been invovled in judo for forty-two years and have never found anyone who knows what, exactly, it is. There is that written speech Kano gave in front of Pres. Ulysees S. Grant where he demonstrated a Go waza, but that is as close as I've ever come.

  9. #24
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    If I knew more about the history, I would extrapolate a little more. Ochiai Sensei has been doing kodokan Judo now for nigh on seven decades. He has seen the curricular changes in Judo and has adapted to the new changes, while still retaining the knowledge of the old curriculum. He has demonstrated the Go no kata at the Kodokan at yearly embu for their winter gasshuku.

    Since I am not of a sufficient level in Judo to do any in-depth research (Still a shodan in Judo after 18 years), the research will have to be done by other foreigners.

    I'm going to leave it at that.

    P.S. sometimes for research, you have to leave your own country and do a field trip for further in-depth knowledge.

  10. #25
    Boy Guest

    Default Book will be available soon

    Dear budo friends,

    Early this year at the exams for 6th and 7th dan, Jan Muilwijk performed the go no kata. At these exams you have to show your own 'piece of work'. Jan's 'piece of work' was the go no kata on witch he did research for over a year. In holland there's the NVJJL (dutch union for judo and jiujitsu teachers) they've organized a training on go no kata for their members. At this training on the 6th of november his boek titled 'go no kata' will be presented. The book will be in Dutch but in a short while an English version will be presented too.

    Boy

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boy
    Dear budo friends,

    Early this year at the exams for 6th and 7th dan, Jan Muilwijk performed the go no kata. At these exams you have to show your own 'piece of work'. Jan's 'piece of work' was the go no kata on witch he did research for over a year. In holland there's the NVJJL (dutch union for judo and jiujitsu teachers) they've organized a training on go no kata for their members. At this training on the 6th of november his boek titled 'go no kata' will be presented. The book will be in Dutch but in a short while an English version will be presented too.

    Boy
    Before anyone starts complaining: Please state your full name (you agreed to this by opening an account on e-budo)

    As to the presentation that Jan Muilwijk did, this is the actual reason why I started the inquiry. I'm not sure about the 6th but I'll probably attend the NVJJL training.
    Rogier van der Peijl

    REAL SCOTSMEN WEAR KILTS because sheep can hear a zipper at 500 yards!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!

  12. #27
    Boy Guest

    Default i'm sorry....

    hello again,

    I'm sorry I only used my first name in the previous message. My full name is Boy Muilwijk. And Jan is my uncle. When I was surfing on the internet I came across this site and posted the message to help you out. This sunday the training of the NVJJL will take place in Dordrecht. I'll be there and hope to see you there too. The book about gonokata is produced by 'hartstudio' maybe you can find something on the internet.
    Sorry again for the name mistake...

    Boy

  13. #28
    Boy Guest

    Default oops

    a Little addition to the previous message... Rogier please send my regards to Jan (van den Dobbelsteen) and Bert (Slot) if you will.

    Thnx Boy

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boy
    a Little addition to the previous message... Rogier please send my regards to Jan (van den Dobbelsteen) and Bert (Slot) if you will.

    Thnx Boy
    I certainly will. I hope I can make it on Sunday.
    Rogier van der Peijl

    REAL SCOTSMEN WEAR KILTS because sheep can hear a zipper at 500 yards!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!

  15. #30
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    Originally Posted by Rogier
    found another reference:
    http://www.bestjudo.com/brcompletebookofjudo.shtml
    The Complete Book of Judo by Geof Gleeson
    The index mentions the go-no-kata
    Any chance you have this book Mark?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Griffin
    Different beast entirely. This one is a kata that Gleeson invented himself.
    In his book, "Judo Inside Out" (1983), Gleeson makes a short remark about Go-No-Kata: "Unfortunately the go-no-kata has been lost" (pg.86)
    Antun Sisgoreo

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