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Thread: go no kata reference material?

  1. #31
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    It's still around and being practiced in two locations in Tokyo.

  2. #32
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    Default Go no here, go no there, go no everywhere

    Hi to you all,

    I have been interested in the go no kata for quite some time. Unfortunately information is very scarce.
    As far as I understand it we are talking about three go no kata.

    1/ the original go no kata (from Kodokan) Mr. Anthony Cundy did an article on it. On the net there is a site freebudo.com (in Italian) this has an article and a few stills from a video. Steve Delaney has shared some info with us on this one.

    2/ The phantom go no kata - coming to us through references in books. I think the oldest reference on this one is to be found in Kawaishi's books on judo. All the other references are probably related to him.
    (From memory) it is mentioned that it is a kata of atemi waza.

    3/ The go no kata Jan Muilwijk has presented. Jan Muilwijk is a respected teacher in the Netherlands and I certainly want a copy of the book. BUT this is almost certainly not the 1/ Go no Kata and it may be the 2/ Go no kata Kawaishi mentions.
    It probably is Mr. Muilwijk's interpretation of the kata Kawaishi mentions. Since I haven't read the book as of yet and am not familiair with the research Mr. Muilwijk did this is not clear to me yet.

    I hope in the future the Kodokan will publish material on the Go no kata. Seems fascinating to me.
    On Kawaishi's go no kata, I think his son still teaches judo in France. Maybe our french-speaking brothers or sisters on e-budo should try to contact him and ask if he knows anything about this go no kata his father has mentioned in his books.

    go no here...go no there... etc


    Best regards,

    Johan Smits

  3. #33
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    There's also the fake Go-No-Kata created by Palruski.

  4. #34
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    Hi Steve,

    That's make four then. I wasn't aware of that one but then the term "fake" says a lot.
    Some time ago I was trying to find out about the 1884 version of Kodokan's nage no kata, supposedly to have had ten techniques. I think it was Mark F. who wrote that maybe the go no kata and 1884 version of nage no kata were the same. I didn't think so then but now I am not so sure.
    On the Italian site I think it is mentioned that the go no kata consisted of the (throwing) techniques that Kano thought to be most important at that time.

    Any thoughts on that, everybody in general, and Steve in particular?

    On a side note - in his "my method of self-defense" Kawaishi shows quite a lot of applications of atemi waza.

    Best regards,

    Johan Smits

  5. #35
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    Cundy's article from Hoplite is described on this page. It is probably the best description of the Go No Kata in recent years (1998), but what exactly is it? Is this really the original Go No Kata?

    Was there a Go No Kata at all? Did it servive beyond 1884?


    Mark
    Last edited by MarkF; 12th November 2005 at 10:12.

  6. #36
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    When you ask me, what Antony Cundy describes is the original go no kata. When you think of it, why would someone as great as Kano come up with a ju no kata and not with the opposite in his teaching program (think Yin/Yang, In/Yo etc.)

    But besides that I checked - in Kawaishi's The complete seven kata's of judo (goshin jutsu no kata wasn't around yet) he describes the Go no kata as follows "The Go-no-kata, of kata of force or of blows, more characteristic of Karate-Do (the techniques of the atemis).
    In the same book he explains that "many other judo katas, I shall mention only a few which have fallen into disuetude: the Shobu-no-kata, or kata of attack (more litteraly contest)".

    I think Shinken Shobu no kata is another name (maybe an older one ) for kime no kata so it does make me wonder.
    Perhaps what Kawaishi meant when he mentioned the go no kata was the Goho ate which is a part of the Tandoko Renshu or solo excersises of Kodokan Judo and consist of atemi.

    I think a large part of the problem is that there is still (and that is strange with judo being such an immense art practiced worldwide) so little information available. I mean Japanese sources translated into English.

    Best Regards,

    Johan Smits

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkF
    Cundy's article from Hoplite is described on this page. It is probably the best description of the Go No Kata in recent years (1998), but what exactly is it? Is this really the original Go No Kata?

    Was there a Go No Kata at all? Did it servive beyond 1884?


    Mark
    Mark,

    The Go No Kata that Mr. Cundy has written about and the one I have posted about are from the same sources.

    It is the original. Only until very recently (2001) was the Go No Kata actually reintroduced back to the Kodokan after being obscured for many decades. It survived by being practiced in a few small Tokyo dojo by judoka who actually were taught the kata. It's a kata that drills the use of focused force at critical timings during techniques.

    Johan,

    The Go No Kata is not a kata of "Blows", but of force. There are no atemi in this set whatsoever. That description at best, is a bit "strange".

    BTW, the Shinken Shobu No Kata is the older name for the Kime no kata. When you got to a higher level, you would actually train the kata with live blades and increased speed. Shinken Shobu in modern Japanese usage refers to being serious, but in older references, Shinken Shobu referred to fighting to the death, which kind of denotes the seriousness in which this kata was supposed to have.

    Also, Goho ate are the first five main solo striking drills (Hidari Mae Naname Ate, Migi Ate, Ushiro Ate, Mae Ate & Ue Ate) from the Seiryoku Zenyo Kokumin Taiiku No Kata.

  8. #38
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    Hi Steve,

    Thanks for your explanation.
    Maybe the original Go no Kata was already " lost" when Kawaishi got his training and he just made a mistake. I still think the misunderstandings on the Go no Kata originate with Kawaishi and his reference.
    The good news is that the Go no Kata isn't lost so I guess there will be a very interesting extra kata to practice in the future.

    Maybe this could even be a turning point in judo's future. I mean the reintrodcution of this kata could very well be the start of a revival of judo as a "traditional fighting art" as opposed to Olympic judo (a mere sport).
    (chuckles).

    Best Regards,

    Johan Smits

  9. #39
    MarkF Guest

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    The Go No Kata is not a kata of "Blows", but of force. There are no atemi in this set whatsoever. That description at best, is a bit "strange".
    This is what I always believed. Kano gave a speech and demonstration before he ever founded the Kodokan demonstrating force against force, or rather that sometimes, the principles of 'jiu' are not always the way to go. He used an escape from a wrist or forearm grab to demonstrate this 'fact.'

    I do not have a problem with your explanation or with Cundy, I only wonder why this kata has been so secretive. I know the Kodokan is sometimes the last to know about such things (read their description of th Itsu tsu no kata), but asking the question may produce a difinitive answer. Or it may not.

    BTW: There are many sources who mention the Go No Kata in very much the same way as Kawaishi. I found his comments to be, well, not what I expected about that kata, but because the Kodokan is added something to the official kata does not answer the question, either. After all, it has been a very long time.


    Mark

  10. #40
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    Hi Mark,

    I agree with you that we will never know if the Go no Kata the Kodokan is reintroducing is the ' original' one, but that makes sense for all kata in whatever system. Who knows how a kata was practiced exactly if there is no historical footage on film?
    But I really think a kata like this could make a difference, learing when to use applied force is a whole different ballgame from training with weights.
    Maybe people with good connections with the Kodokan could ask about this. I think there is a big archive and library at the Kodokan of which almost nothing is translated in English. They should think about that sometimes, this would give us acces to first hand sources.
    About the Itsutsu no kata, they still tell us Kano created it while we got it from very reliable sources that the forms are from the Tenjin Shinyo-ryu
    (Kuden or whatever).
    But then mythmaking seems to be part of big organizations (ALL of them).

    Best regards,

    Johan Smits

  11. #41
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    About my last post I just want to say that I don't doubt the authenticity of the Go no Kata the Kodokan is reintroducing.
    It's just that change in forms is inevitable, that doesn't have to be a bad thing, provided the changes are made by people qualified to do so.
    I saw a goshin jutsu no kata from Kyuzo Mifune on tape. It was very different from the Kodokan Goshin jutsu no kata(it was older, with idori in it), but it was absolutely marvelous. I don't know if that one is still practiced but it deserves attention.

    Best,

    Johan Smits

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan smits
    About my last post I just want to say that I don't doubt the authenticity of the Go no Kata the Kodokan is reintroducing.
    It's just that change in forms is inevitable, that doesn't have to be a bad thing, provided the changes are made by people qualified to do so.
    I saw a goshin jutsu no kata from Kyuzo Mifune on tape. It was very different from the Kodokan Goshin jutsu no kata(it was older, with idori in it), but it was absolutely marvelous. I don't know if that one is still practiced but it deserves attention.

    Best,

    Johan Smits
    The Goshinjutsu that Mifune does on that tape has a lot of Tenjin Shinyo-ryu influences and Oyo waza, just like the Kime No Kata.

    As far as I know, no-one in Japan or the West practices that set anymore.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan smits
    About the Itsutsu no kata, they still tell us Kano created it while we got it from very reliable sources that the forms are from the Tenjin Shinyo-ryu
    (Kuden or whatever).
    But then mythmaking seems to be part of big organizations (ALL of them).
    Those forms are from Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, only with very slight changes made by Kano shihan.

  14. #44
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    Thanks Steve,

    I tried to write the names of the technqiues down but the tape I got is not of the best quality so a lot of names are just not visible. Others are names common to judo or jujutsu I think.
    If you think how many judoteachers there have been (and still are) in Japan and I guess most of them did have some variations of their own of the formal kata then quite a lot of material probably has been lost.


    Best,

    Johan Smits

  15. #45
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    Steve,

    What is the video called?
    Kind Regards
    Lee Masters
    Tenjin Shinyo Ryu
    Tenyokai International

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