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Thread: go no kata reference material?

  1. #61
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    Hi Mark

    What John Cornish taught a seminar on was Kodokan Goshin Jutsu. However, the calling notices for the seminar did refer incorrectly refer to the topic as the Goshin Jutsu no Kata. The write up for the seminar which can be accessed from http://www.sleepingstorm-aikido.wana...shin_jutsu.htm also uses the incorrect terminology of "Judo Goshin Jutsu" kata.

    "Goshin Jutsu" simply translates as "self defence" - Kodokan Goshin Jutsu therefore means Kodokan Self Defence. The techniques are demonstrated in kata form, but it is quite an informal kata compared to some of the other Kodokan kata.

    I was not quoting in my original post, but the Kodokan New Japanese-English Dictionary of Judo by Kawanura and Daigo does have a definition for Kodokan Goshin Jutsu.

    In the UK I have studied Kodokan Goshin Jutsu on a seminar given by John Cornish and more recently under World Masters International Kata Judge, Bob Thomas. Also I have studied the Kodokan Video tape of the kata. John Cornish has written a booklet on the kata and the way he demonstrates some of the techniques differ quite significantly from today's Kodokan standard - especially the final technique Haimen-zuki (Pistol against the Back).

    I also have a old film of two French judo masters Bernard and Daniel Pariset demonstrating the kata which too deviates significantly from Kodokan standard.

    I lived in Japan for 2 years and trained at Kodokan. The demonstrations of Goshin Jutsu I saw there were pretty fixed.

    Best Regards

    Llyr
    Dr Llyr C Jones (ジョーンズ)

  2. #62
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    Welcome to E-budo, Llyr,

    Just to let you know, I received your email. Thank you so much for your article. I do appreciate the gesture and your words.

    I am in the process of moving and still haven't found the place I want. I have so much to pack and put away, I just don't see an end to it yet. You will receive an email from me in just a few minutes, to let you know.

    As to the correct name of the Kodokan "system" of self-defense, it is easy to make a mistake and then stick to it. It is like uchi-komi. It may be the greatest exercise there is, but it can also train one into bad technique, if one isn't careful. I have the issue of Kodokan Judo with the first publication of Kodokan Goshin Jutsu.

    I'll write more off-board.


    Again, thank you,


    Mark

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkF
    ....it is easy to make a mistake and then stick to it. It is like uchi-komi. It may be the greatest exercise there is, but it can also train one into bad technique, if one isn't careful.
    Mark - I totally agree with you on uchi-komi. Practice does not make perfect - rather, practice makes permanent. A mistake that is repeated often enough becomes ingrained.

    Best regards

    Llyr
    Dr Llyr C Jones (ジョーンズ)

  4. #64
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    Hi Llyr,

    I read your paper in the 14-3 issue of Journal of Asian Martial Arts, and thought very interesting. I have one question though: You mention kime no kata and kime shiki as two different kata? I thought kime shiki was a different name for kime no kata. Am I mistaken?

    I have e-mailed Bob Thomas, and hopefully we will meet for some kata practice soon.

    Cheers,

    Mads
    Mads Gabrielsen

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabro
    I have one question though: You mention kime no kata and kime shiki as two different kata? I thought kime shiki was a different name for kime no kata. Am I mistaken?
    Kime shiki means, roughly, "in the style of Kime no kata." It refers to a portion of another Kodokan kata (the Seiryoku Zen'yo Kokumin Taiiku no kata) in which a series of techniques are performed which closely resemble (but don't exact duplicate) some of the techniques in Kime no kata.

    The SRZKT no kata has two main parts:
    • Tandoku Renshu "Solo Exercise" is a series of basic strikes & blocks performed alone
    • Sotai Renshu "Paired Exercise" is a series of techniques performed with a partner

    The Sotai Renshu has two parts:
    • Kime Shiki is ten techniques (five seated/five standing) similar to parts of Kime no kata
    • Ju Shiki is ten techniques from Ju no kata
    Yours in Judo,

    Brian P. Griffin

  6. #66
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    Thanks Brian,

    I was looking through my books last night to see if I could find the source for my belief and couldn't, so my mistake.

    I haven't done SRZKT more than a few times, and mostly only the solo part.

    Cheers,

    Mads
    Mads Gabrielsen

  7. #67
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    Hi all,

    The Go no Kata by Jan Muilwijk was recently published in Dutch. I think there is an English translation planned for later.

    The work is quite interesting. It is presented as an ongoing research into the Go no Kata. This kata is based more or less I quess on Kawaishi's Go no Kata. The Kodokan's Go no Kata is mentioned but nothing more.

    It seems to me to be a quite strong solid kata in which judo technqiues and atemi waza (from karate) are used.

    Just to let you know.

    Best regards,

    Johan Smits

  8. #68
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    So it isn't the real go no kata.

  9. #69
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    Hi Steve,

    Maybe you are a bit harsh in your judgement. It isn't the Kodokan Go no Kata.
    That doesn't make it any less real I think.

    If Kawaishi sensei knew of a kata called Go no Kata or even if he created a Go no Kata himself that doesn't mean it is a bad thing. The same holds true for Jan Muilwijk's kata. As long as someone doesn't make false claims it's okay.


    But then I am in a very positive mood today. Won't last long I can tell.

    Best,

    Johan Smits

  10. #70
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    Well, Perhaps Steve meant it isn't the original Kodokan Go no Kata practiced from 1882 to at least 1884-1886. This is the kata I would like to find. Just about every time this subject comes up, it is described differently. There is good reason for a go no kata and such waza are apparent.


    Mark

  11. #71
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    Mark,

    I guess you are right and indeed it isn't the original Go no Kata. I have been trying to find info on it ever since I read the article on it by Antony Cundy. I think it is also described as a kata in between classical jujutsu and judo in that period so it should be of interest to a really large group of practitioners seems to me.

    One of my main questions concerning the go no kata is why it was lost.
    Contrary the ju no kata was preserved and is well known and probably practiced widely. How come a kata which teaches (from memory) the moment when to use applied strength is lost so early on?
    It seems to me this is the crux of judo, so why did it get lost in the first place?

    By the way, I have no doubt at all that the about the original Kodokan go no kata, the info of Anthony Cundy and Steve is the only reliable info.


    Now I suspect there are quite some people here on this board who are really knowledgeable about judo and it would not surprise me if they already know a lot more about the whole thing than is posted here.
    Why not share? Ooops another good mood and the WE-feeling on the rise. Hope it passes quickly.

    Best,

    Johan Smits

  12. #72
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    I have been thinking about the go no kata "situation" and I see the following scenario developing.

    The go no kata as Jan Muilwijk has researched/developed is being taught in The Netherlands still on a small scale but it is being taught. A book has been published and I think an English translation in coming forward.

    Now the Kodokan has (re-) discovered a kata named go no kata. There is internationally an enormous interest in this Kodokan go no kata. Unfortunately the Kodokan does not give any information about this kata. On the net interest among judoka/jujutsuka (is it a word, yes it is but is it correct?) is peaking.
    Still no word from the Kodokan. Independent from the Kodokan and far far away individual teachers are working and progressing with the development of their go no kata.

    Those tens maybe hundreds of thousands of judoka who will never travel to Japan to train in the Kodokan will be aware of the (European) go no kata but not of the Kodokan go no kata because of lack of information.
    That is a sorry state.
    Myself - I am interested in both go no kata (Kodokan's and Kawaishi's ) and if Jan Muilwijk's proves to be different from Kawaishi's in the three of them.

    I think those "in the know"should make the most out of the historical interest there is among the ranks of judoka, it is a great chance to develop judo as more than an Olympic sport, and in doing so approach the original goal of judo.

    For what it's worth.

    Johan Smits

  13. #73
    MarkF Guest

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    On the net interest among judoka/jujutsuka (is it a word, yes it is but is it correct?) is peaking.
    Do you mean "jujutsuka?" If so, I have been trying to avoid it as of late because I am not sure, either.
    *******

    There has been interest in the Go no Kata for as long as I can recall, and of late more interest because of the Internet, but I am very curious about the kata the kodokan is/will be pushing.

    We have been told by at least one kata specialist here that the kata never did disappear, that it was like a lot of things seemingly missing, it has always been practiced in small dojo here and there. The only problem I have with that is that Judo has long been an open art even though Kano's "oath" was never to discuss or show waza outside the walls of the dojo. But as the elder judoka of the 1930s said when they returned to the Kodokan "That is not MY Judo" or something similar to that, something was missing, and going back to the earliest judoka, a few who are still living, in the US (Pacific Northwest US), it was the new judo player who had the health and the strength to "just pick uke up and slam him back to the mat." They did not like that even if that was a more important goal for Kano Jigoro and the Japanese than was Judo. It was heard in the US, Canada, and Mexico in the 1950s when the camps finally closed though that didn't completely happen until 1957.

    It does not surprise me that the ju no kata survived and is practiced widely while such as the itsu tsu no kata has floundered even as an "Official" kata. The Kodokan committee admits that they don't recognize its movements fully but Kawaishi considered it to be the first superior kata. Perhaps that is what those who ask whose judo do you practice mean when they ask "Do you play Kano Judo or Kawaishi Judo?"

    The Ju no kata is THE expression of the basics of JU, the main principle of JU-do. Perhaps confusion reigns when the go no kata is discussed or performed. In a way, contest judo is coached and taught that way all ready, it is just the basics that are in flux, but I don't really know.

    IOW, Johan, I actually wonder of the same thing as do you. Forms of hardness, or rather, forms of when force should be applied, may be too obvious to some who may be thinking "Huh?"



    Mark

  14. #74
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    My understanding is that that original Go-no-Kata was a genuine Kodokan Kata and that it was the complementary kata to the Ju-no-Kata, where of course, 'Go' means hardness and 'Ju' means softness.

    The kata may have been 'lost' to some degree in that it was never properly written down however it is certainly possible that a few Japanese teachers have some knowledge of the kata. Daigo-sensei and Abbe-sensei at Kodokan are two great teachers that spring to mind.

    It is also entirely feasible that other teachers have created, evolved or developed their own 'Go no Kata' to illustarte the principles of hardness. There is insufficient information available to determine the commonality or not of their Go no Kata with the original Kodokan form. However, it must be rembered that until their recent standardisation there was a degree of variation in the currently recognised 7 (Nage, Katame, Ju-no, Kime, Goshin, Koshiki and Itsutsu) Kodokan kata themselves.

    Llyr
    Dr Llyr C Jones (ジョーンズ)

  15. #75
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    That makes me wonder again if the go no kata or the ju no kata was developed first.

    What is also not clear (what is clear I wonder) is wether the Kodokan go no kata equals the nage no kata of 1883 or 1885 which is supposed to have had ten techniques.

    About kata in general, sometimes I get the feeling when I see a kata performed that the kata itself has become more important than the principles the forms are supposed to teach. Meaning we are much more busy with the appearance of the kata than with the essence. An example of what I mean are the remarks of Steve that in kime no kata zanshin and metsuke are of importance, a thing lacking in most performances of that kata.
    From my own experience - the start of the nage no kata usually a stifflegged judoka who doesn't seem to be moving naturally at all throughout the kata performs it and is applauded. Makes me wonder.

    Another question is: Jigoro Kano made his notes concerning judo in English, is it not so? If these notes are available to the general public it would mean that research concerning these matters (go no kata, etc) would be a relatively easy matter.

    Gotta run now,

    Best,

    Johan Smits

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