Wapons in karate

[Bob van Tuyn]

Questions,

Karate (according to all the corny holly wood movies) meaning empty hand sounds like a style-system where people should learn to fight/defend without the aid of weapons.

Is this assumption right? Is karate meanly a style based on fighting without weapons?? What's your thought about this?

In my dojo we don’t use weapons at all.

Gr.

[Victor Smith]

Bob,

When the term Karate was coined, it originally meant Tang or perhaps China Hand. It was around the 1930's the kanjin was more commanly changed to that of 'Empty Hand' the definition most commonly used today.

From Okinawna tradition. some Karate-ka did include weapons training. Other systems were without, all of which can be considered karate.

On the whole in the last say 150 years or so Okinawa has been a quiet place, exepting during WWII where it was literallly hell.

The Okinawan weapons arts have not been serious weaposn studies in the past 150 years. Back that far is about the time of Tom Cruise's movie, 'The Last Samauri'. I don't consder the movie necessarily accurate, but the times were. What Okinawan karate-ka would have lasted against thos Samuari armies, much less the modern ones. On the battle field, absolutely none of them.

But the weapons traditions, in the hands of a real instructor, are incredibly valubable. They extend the training potential of the advanced martial artist, increase grip strength, body coordination betwen the weapon and body swinging, and provide more precise vectors of control to push one.

All of them work, they cut or smash, but then as today, they're terribly in last place against modern weaponry.

The value of kobudo is not short term, it an take decades to make their import worth felt.

So some systems will use weapons others won't. Both answers have merit.

[Blackwood]

Within the style I study, there are no weapons. But we also have a companion organization, comprised mostly of the same individuals, that is kobudo and focuses on the weapons. There is no obligation to belong to both or to study both.

[Trevor Johnson]

If you read Gichin Funakoshi's Karate-Do, My Way of Life you find that he changed the first character of Kara-Te from Kara (Chinese) to Kara/Ku (empty, buddhist void). He did this, as far as I know, largely because the Japanese wouldn't have accepted an art called "Chinese Hands" for anything, but would be more comfortable with "Empty Hands." I know that Okinawan Karate was very often associated with weapons, they were a normal part of training and not anything really "special."

[treesurfer78]

Now, please correct me if I am wrong, but the Okinawans didn't actually paractice 'karate' as such.
Back in the day, their fighting styles were named after the places they were taught and the three main ones were shuri-te, naha-te and tomari-te.

Also, as these folks were fishermen and farmers they never posessed weapons apart from what they could pick up from near by; such as wooden handles (tonfa) staves (bo & jo) rice flails (nunchaku) and such like.

Gichin Funikoshi, the so-called 'founder' of modern day 'karate' was an exponent of Okinawan Shurei-te, and went to mainland Japan in 1917 to demonstrate his style of combat. From there, he settled in mainland Japan and began his karate school - Shotokan. 'The House of Shoto.'

So, if the karate ryu you belong to can claim lineage to traditional Okinawan karate, there may be time when you use weapons, as Okinawan karate was not so empty-handed. I train in wado ryu - which does not utilize weaponary, but does teach unarmed defence against the sword and knife.

If any of this makes sense to you then well done. If not, I apologize profusely and will remain silent. Thank you for listening

[Harry Cook]

The Naha, Shuri, Tomari 'divisions' were created in the 1920s to attempt to divorce Okinawan karate from its Chinese roots. I don't think these divisions actually mean too much.
Harry Cook

[Chris McLean]

Every traditional school I have ever attended eventualy introduced a weapon.
Some just the Bo Staff, Shotokan. Even if it was just an extra or supplemental kata. Just depends on the instructor and their experiance. Ussually introduced after green belt or brown belt and more is added after Black.

[Richard Codling]

Hi folks,

Sorry to stick my tuppence-worth in on a forum for a martial art that I know very little about but I read this thread with some interest.

there may be time when you use weapons, as Okinawan karate was not so empty-handed. I train in wado ryu - which does not utilize weaponary, but does teach unarmed defence against the sword and knife.

I study Shorinji Kempo and while we practice a primarily empty handed defence-with-counter-attacks type system , there are some techniques that do involve weapons attacks (a straight knife thrust to the stomach for example).

In order to learn effective defence techniques, one must be attacked properly. This is true for both unarmed and armed attacks thus, if you want to effectively learn to deal with an attack from a weapon, you must therefore train with a weapon and attack in a committed manner.

We are often asked "Do you use weapons?" My answer is along the lines of "Sort of." I'll add that even if a self defence system claims to be empty handed, there's no reason why weapons won't be seen in the dojo - see my previous comment.


Best wishes,

Richard

[Trevor Johnson]

Also, as these folks were fishermen and farmers they never posessed weapons apart from what they could pick up from near by; such as wooden handles (tonfa) staves (bo & jo) rice flails (nunchaku) and such like.

Gichin Funikoshi, the so-called 'founder' of modern day 'karate' was an exponent of Okinawan Shurei-te, and went to mainland Japan in 1917 to demonstrate his style of combat. From there, he settled in mainland Japan and began his karate school - Shotokan. 'The House of Shoto.'

Actually, I think that a lot of those weapons are adaptations of chinese weaponry. They're not just picked up farming tools.

BTW, one of the things you might notice about Funakoshi's Karate-Do is that it's a compilation of the Naha-Te, Tomari-Te, and Shuri-Te. He was trying to preserve as much of those arts as possible, and so took the kata of all three styles and put them into Shotokan. That's why there are so many. You may notice a lot of name changes, though. Nowadays, there are actually fewer kata allowed than he taught. As one example, Sanchin used to be one of the allowed alternate Shotokan kata, though it's been erased from the books.

[Jussi Häkkinen]

If you read Gichin Funakoshi's Karate-Do, My Way of Life you find that he changed the first character of Kara-Te from Kara (Chinese) to Kara/Ku (empty, buddhist void).

Really? How about Hanashiro Chomo's use of the "new" written way in his publication Karate shoshu hen in 1905, 17 years before Funakoshi went to Japan? (Using the written form in a publication is a pretty good hint about name being well known by it/also by it in wider circles also).

Also, as these folks were fishermen and farmers they never posessed weapons apart from what they could pick up from near by; such as wooden handles (tonfa) staves (bo & jo) rice flails (nunchaku) and such like.

I don't find it very likely that karate or kobudo would have been a martial art of lower classes (fishermen and farmers). Kobudo weapons are generally well known and used as weapons throughout the orient and the people who trained in the use with them have - according to most known records - been from the high classes. That's rather credible - they would have had time to train these skills. I also find the common story about farmers fighting against Japanese samurai conquerors very unlikely, especially since the takeover was quick and, for the long time, didn't severely hinder Okinawa's ability to be in contact with China and to trade with them.


When it comes to Shuri-te, Tomari-te and Naha-te, I share Mr. Cook's view.

[Trevor Johnson]

Really? How about Hanashiro Chomo's use of the "new" written way in his publication Karate shoshu hen in 1905, 17 years before Funakoshi went to Japan? (Using the written form in a publication is a pretty good hint about name being well known by it/also by it in wider circles also).

Hmmm. For what it's worth, Karate-Do, My Way of Life gives a pretty strong hint that he was a big advocate of changing the name, as well as the whole Japanization of Okinawa. (Shaving of topnots, ets. ) You can read his argument. It may have begun earlier than I thought, but I still stand by that.

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Hmmm. For what it's worth, Karate-Do, My Way of Life gives a pretty strong hint that he was a big advocate of changing the name, as well as the whole Japanization of Okinawa. (Shaving of topnots, ets. ) You can read his argument. It may have begun earlier than I thought, but I still stand by that.

I have read Funakoshi's text. I believe that he mainly drove for systematized naming and "change" to the format he did prefer.

Of course it's possible that he hadn't seen the "empty hand" name earlier. Unlikely, though.

[Harry Cook]

I think Funakoshi had seen the use of the empty hand rather than China hand characters before he went to Japan.
He makes use of an expression 'ku ken' for 'empty fists' in the 1920s. This of course could be read kara-ken.
Harry Cook

[Victor Smith]

Returning to weapons and Karate, it is difficult to sort through the various books and know exactly what was the story, which instructors included weapons training, which did not. Likewise whether the weapons developed from farm tools (unlikely as almost all of them can be found as weapons systems in other Eastern cultures) or for other reasons, leaves only argument and not consensus over time.

I can pretty safely say Miyagi C. didn't include weapons in the Goju he developed and taught.
Kyan C. sought out and learned one bo kata, Tokomeni No Kon.
Funakoshi knew some kobudo but did not include it in his developing Shotokan.
Others included Kobudo such as Soken H.

Then Taira S. sought out koboudo instruction and shared it as widely as possible.

In time other factors added to kobudo inclusion in various groups of training.

Personally I feel there is great value for the long term advanced student's physical development through kobudo instruction.

I also feel there is no actual self defense reason to study Okinawan kobudo, it no longer meets the needs of the world to use those studies for self defense.

[enbudo]

Yes, karate is a style that is primarily an empty-handed art, but in its "original" form, before names and styles, it was meant to be a means of self-defense for native Okinawans, who were not "allowed" to carry weapons of any kind due to a ban on weapons by the (Satsuma?) samurai who invaded the island in 1609. The ban on weapons really meant swords and spears and bows and the like, but of course the Okinawans (not being a stupid people) would not hesitiate to add a force multiplier when needed to ensure their personal safety. That's just plain silly.

The Okinawans didn't have access to "typical" weapons, and that's really where the seeds of kobudo took root. Weather traditional kobudo weapons came from farming tools or everyday implements isn't necessarily important. Interesting, to be sure, but not important.

I don't think any Okinawan worth his rice field would hesitate to pick up a weapon if he needed to defend himself, his home, or his family.


Okay, starting to ramble, sorry, everyone. I think Funakoshi also wanted to capture the Buddhust notion of "emptiness" when he changed the name from kara (China) to kara (empty). I don't think he meant "no weapons" at all.

Best,
J