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Thread: Wapons in karate

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by enbudo
    Yes, karate is a style that is primarily an empty-handed art, but in its "original" form, before names and styles, it was meant to be a means of self-defense for native Okinawans, who were not "allowed" to carry weapons of any kind due to a ban on weapons by the (Satsuma?) samurai who invaded the island in 1609.
    Oh, please...

    Ban of weapons was set way before the samurai conquered Okinawa in 1609. First weapon ban was set during the reign of king Sho Shin (1477). It was reinforced by Satsuma clan, but there still were weapons - real weapons, not farm tool implementation (as usually claimed in popular tales) - used and trained in Okinawa.

    The Okinawans didn't have access to "typical" weapons, and that's really where the seeds of kobudo took root.
    Timbei and rochin, bow, sai etc. are pretty typical weapons and known in many cultures (in one form or another).

    Okay, starting to ramble, sorry, everyone. I think Funakoshi also wanted to capture the Buddhust notion of "emptiness" when he changed the name from kara (China) to kara (empty). I don't think he meant "no weapons" at all.
    As already stated, Gichin Funakoshi did not change the name from "China" to "empty".
    Jussi Häkkinen
    Shorin-Ryu Seibukan Karate-Do
    Turku, Finland

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by enbudo
    Okay, starting to ramble, sorry, everyone. I think Funakoshi also wanted to capture the Buddhust notion of "emptiness" when he changed the name from kara (China) to kara (empty). I don't think he meant "no weapons" at all.

    Best,
    J
    That was in fact his official stated reason for doing so. My own understanding is that there was a great deal of politics going on behind that reason as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by enbudo
    The Okinawans didn't have access to "typical" weapons, and that's really where the seeds of kobudo took root. Weather traditional kobudo weapons came from farming tools or everyday implements isn't necessarily important. Interesting, to be sure, but not important.
    I think that it's pretty easy to find correlates among the Chinese weapons for the Okinawan. Being a major trading partner with China, there would have been the exposure. Besides, having a lot of sailors in port, they'll bring weapons. Sailors always would have some kind of weapon to hand, be it an oar, a version of marlinspike, or some kind of other weapon. They tend to be rather violent in port, something about the drinking... Nunchaku are basically a club with a bit of extra utility, easy for a sailor to carry and use. Same with tonfa and such.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  3. #18
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    Jason,

    I'm just going from memory now, without digging out the quotes.

    But the latest research I've read was the Okinawan King never confisticated weapons, that was a mistranslation that everyone, including the Japanese, accepted as correct. The latest translation of the history was the king required the weapons gathered in a central weaposn repository, so if there was an invasion everyone could readily get them and not look where the kids hid them, so to speak.

    When the Japanese did invade, essentially the trained Okinawan self defense force lasted about 15 hours and then the King was captured and Okinawa was part of Japan.

    Consider, if that was the source of Okinawan weapons tradition, it doesn't seem terribly effective, and I'm not claiming my flip remark is true, just another consideration.

    With a tradition of really working hard not to document anything about Karate's developement, the most likely source of information seems to be that Chinese influence was the major source.

    There was an Okinawn Ti tradition, but that seems a very restricted one, and may or may not have influenced karate's development. As the Okinawan's really documented nothing, any claims otherwise are just vapor wear. And of course oral history. And Oral history leave you open to believe it or not.

    Now the one weapon system that seems most likely would be the kama. That was how everyone kept their 'lawn's' under control and was always there. but even that has it's real limitations. The Kama on okinwaw wasn't necessarily anything like the war kama used in older Japan. And regardless of what drills are being used today, if you really believe a kama could stop a staff or sword when the one with those weapons knew what to do,....

    If one want's to maintain that kobudo was an integral karate tradition, show us which ones, and what their penetration was in Okinawa. I sort of understand in the past 60 or so years about 60% of Okinawan were Shorin traditions, and about 30 % of Okinawan karate was Goju traditions and the rest filled in the difference.

    Forget what happened when karate transplated itself to Japan. Funakoshi focused on Itosu's empty hand, and his wepons traditions were left behind. In fact a Funakoshi Student, who was directed to Mabuni and Yabi (spelling?), Tara Shinken, really worked to resurrect Kobudo on his own, and out of respect many people across Okinawa shared with him, and he literally brought kobudo into the light, not the other traditions (who kept it very close).

    All over the world people would grab anything to defend their families. I find it hard to accept that had anything to do with kobudo development, where the primary tool seems to be kata.

    The full record is yet to be recorded, but it wouldn't hurt to read John Sells book "unante", Harry Cooks latest work on Shotokan, Patrick McCarthy's translation of Tara Shinkens book on Kobudo as a starting point.

    There are others such as the 3 volume work by Innoue, showing what 75 Tara kobudo kata.

    I think little suggests farm tools.
    Victor Smith
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    www.funkydragon.com/bushi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jussi Häkkinen
    Oh, please...
    Jussi, my fine Finlandian friend, it's rather brash to start a post like that, don't you think?

    Yes, you are correct when you say that there was a general weapons ban in effect long before the arrival of the samurai. I did not want to make a long post by describing all of Okinawan history, but thanks for the clarification.

    By "typical" weapons, I was referring to the weapons used by the professional warrior class. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Any samurai worth his salt probably wouldn't waste his time picking up a sai when sword and spear and tanto were available.

    Trevor, I think you're right about the general proliferation and availability of weaponry on Okinawa -- after all, a wepons ban is very hard to enforce. (Just look at the handgun problem in the U.S. today!)

    Victor, thanks for your comments. Okinawan karate is such a mishmash of native and non-native self-defense techiques, it's not so far a stretch to suppose that the Okinawan weapons tradition had multiple sources as well. I do not maintain that kobudo was an integral karate tradition, just that kobudo found fertile soil for devleopment on an island where "professional grade" weapons were not readily available.


    Thanks all,
    Jason
    Jason Gould
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    www.karateinboston.com

    "Confidence, Character, Community."

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by enbudo
    Jussi, my fine Finlandian friend, it's rather brash to start a post like that, don't you think?

    Yes, and I'm sorry about that. I just had this "not again this "peasants against samurai" -story. I've had to correct that pretty much lately, so it was...hmm, a burst of frustration. Sorry.
    Jussi Häkkinen
    Shorin-Ryu Seibukan Karate-Do
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    Quote Originally Posted by enbudo
    Trevor, I think you're right about the general proliferation and availability of weaponry on Okinawa -- after all, a wepons ban is very hard to enforce. (Just look at the handgun problem in the U.S. today!)
    Personally, I figure that anywhere you can find something that can be made into a weapon, you'll find someone who's done so. Look in prisons at shanks and shivs. Heh, I just had an argument with a Swedish friend of mine, who was talking about those hooks that people hang around their necks if they're going out on the ice so they can pull themselves out if the ice breaks. I stoutly maintained that they've been used as weapons, she disagreed, stating that I was too violent, and that nobody would use simple tools like these in a fight. Some people won't see the obvious...
    Trevor Johnson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jussi Häkkinen
    Yes, and I'm sorry about that. I just had this "not again this "peasants against samurai" -story. I've had to correct that pretty much lately, so it was...hmm, a burst of frustration. Sorry.
    I humbly accept your apology, and thank you for offering it.

    Yes, the "peasants against samurai" argument is very romantic, but not very realistic. To be sure, karate and kobudo did not evolve to defeat the samurai, but it sure does sound neat, right? But, I'm sure that isolated cases of street justice did occurr, and the few that did created the the stuff that legends are made of.

    Yours in budo,
    J
    Jason Gould
    Emerald Necklace Budo Martial Arts
    www.karateinboston.com

    "Confidence, Character, Community."

  8. #23
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    Trevor

    Folks not "seeing the obvious" is not such a bad thing when it comes to self-defense.

    Way I look at it--the more folks that DON'T even think/consider what I have is a weapon--the safer I am.

    Its when the tricks become common info that you have to worry.

    Chris Thomas

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    True. I just get rather sick of the, "But, that could HURT somebody!" Really, you don't say? Maybe, just maybe, that would be the point?
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  10. #25
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    Thanks for all the replies, as someone from a kyokushin school I’ve only used weapons when we had a seminar from another fighting style over in the dojo. And the weapon used was the knife, none of the “traditional” weapons.

    All things written makes sense, being in that time a sword, bo etc would be better than hand to hand fighting, Thus schooling in it makes sense to me. Just like to day a fire weapon would be nice to have in a dangerous situation.

    My question is do you think it’s “necessary” to practise weapons in karate.. Especially weapons that are not from this time (bow, Sword etc). Even knifes, I mean defending from a knife as a unarmed person would be useful to me.. But learning to wield one wuld not… Simply because I never will carry a knife. Does weapons training give you advantages in balance or something like that?

    Grtz
    Bob.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob van Tuyn
    My question is do you think it’s “necessary” to practise weapons in karate.. Does weapons training give you advantages in balance or something like that?
    Great question, Bob. IMO, no, it is not "necessary" to practice weapons in karate. In my organization, knowledge of kobudo is needed for advancement to shodan, but there are systems and organizations out there that do not train in weapons at all. Noting wrong with that. I consider myself very lucky to belong to an organization with such depth of knowledge in kobudo. If you have the opportunity to learn something that you're interested in, don't pass it up.

    The force multiplier benefits of using a weapon in actual application are obvious, but I don't think weapons training gives any significant training advantages. In fact, I'd say that if you don't know your own body first, then putting a weapon in your hand (during training or in a real self defense situation) will only tend to get you into additional trouble.

    Off-hand, I'd say maybe training with weapons can help to develop depth perception, greater knowledge of anatomy (vital areas for striking), physical dexterity, and wrist/forearm strength. But you can develop these areas with other training methods as well. Who knows, others may think differently!


    Best,
    J
    Jason Gould
    Emerald Necklace Budo Martial Arts
    www.karateinboston.com

    "Confidence, Character, Community."

  12. #27
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    Bob

    Part of learning how to defend vs a weapon is knowing how its used.

    Learning to use, say a knife, teachs you how to use it, the strengths and weakness of the weapon, the ways it can be used t best effect, the specific cuts that do the most damage--and the ones that make you most "open" to a counter.

    Not meaning to hack anyone off, but that is exactly why some of the "counters" to say the bo, found in the older JKA applications of kata look so odd and ineffective.
    Since many of the guys that came up with the "counters/applications" did not train with a bo--they had little practical understanding of how it it could be best countered.

    (kobudo is NOT "karate with a stick.")

    You have the same problem in SOME--thats SOME, not all, or most, or many, just SOME aikido schools.
    They teach various techs vs the sword, the problem is that some of these guys, not being trained swordsmen have little understanding of how an actual swordsmen would really do it.
    So the guy working on counters "really" is not getting a good understanding of the problem he is trying to solve.

    Don't know if this helps or even makes sense, just my opinion.

    Chris Thomas

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    Quote Originally Posted by cxt
    Part of learning how to defend vs a weapon is knowing how its used.

    (kobudo is NOT "karate with a stick.")
    Great points, Chris. Don't know how I missed saying them myself!

    J
    Jason Gould
    Emerald Necklace Budo Martial Arts
    www.karateinboston.com

    "Confidence, Character, Community."

  14. #29
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    I think the whole reason for 'tools as weapons' was to teach Okinawans how to use items they would likely find close at hand. Sticks, sickles, oars, etc was common implements of the day. I think this was the real strength of kobudo rather that allowing the kobudoka to carry a weapon with out attracting notice.

    So if an person was a fisherman he would spend more time training with an oar than say a farmer who would spend more time with a kama.

    If the reason for kobudo training was to enable a karateka to grab the nearest tool or item and use it to defend himself, then it would be prudent for modern kobudoka to practice with item common to our lives.

    A mechanic would train with a spanner(that's a wrench), lumberjack with an axe, office worker with a pen, shoe salesman with a shoe, geologist with a rock, clown with a unicycle, etc.

    Weapons like sticks are common everywhere.
    Liam Cognet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liam Cognet
    I think the whole reason for 'tools as weapons' was to teach Okinawans how to use items they would likely find close at hand. Sticks, sickles, oars, etc was common implements of the day. I think this was the real strength of kobudo rather that allowing the kobudoka to carry a weapon with out attracting notice.

    So if an person was a fisherman he would spend more time training with an oar than say a farmer who would spend more time with a kama.

    If the reason for kobudo training was to enable a karateka to grab the nearest tool or item and use it to defend himself, then it would be prudent for modern kobudoka to practice with item common to our lives.

    A mechanic would train with a spanner(that's a wrench), lumberjack with an axe, office worker with a pen, shoe salesman with a shoe, geologist with a rock, clown with a unicycle, etc.

    Weapons like sticks are common everywhere.
    What about weapons like chintei?
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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