Ki/Chi/Prana & Meditation

[Exorcist_Fist]

Benefits... hmm. Nothing comes to mind.

The fact of the matter is, until you truly experience it, it's difficult to understand what it is. It's like trying to tell a person who lives in a desert what it is like to swim.

That being said, again the equating of qi with physical strength is way off. As with the above example, once you begin to explain it people will simply wander off down their own belief systems. The point behind the old woman and the turtles is not simply that people will believe anything, the point is that people will cling to those beliefs without a rational reason to do so.

I began training in taiji by accident. I had a fundementally incorrect idea of what ki was from having done other forms of MA, and having been involved with a Zen group doing meditation for about 3 years. I was fortunate in that my teacher never initially discussed Qi with me. When I had certain experiences, I asked her about it. Many people can practice for years and never get it. Why? Because a) If they are looking for ki, they generally have no idea of what they are looking for, b) It's hard to experience something you don't want to believe in (Turtles), c) the practice required to correctly develop even the rudiments of 'qi' are brutally exacting, and most so called taiji people can't handle it. Every posture, breath, and move must be performed 100% correctly, or you are just wasting your time.

[Exorcist_Fist]

Actually, let me post a bit more.

First

The term qi/ki has many meanings. There is yang ki, yin ki, anger ki, food ki, air ki, sun ki, etc. People tend to somehow get the impression these are all parts of a greater whole. They are not. For the purpose of this discussion we will limit ourselves to the ki cultivated through correct and diligent practices, such as meditation or taiji or qi gong.

Second

Ki is not a state of mind. At least not as discussed above. Ki is a physically experiencable thing. This may be sensed in the form of heat, like a mist rising from your skin. It may be sensed flowing through your body. It can be directed through correct practice. Now, this does NOT mean it is some kind of metaphysical crap. I don't know what causes these sensations. In part taiji and other forms of qi gong, and even correctly practiced meditation, strenghtens your fascial system and has some effect on your blood flow. Thus, ki may be entirely physical in nature. I don't know, and I don't care. Ki is also perceptible to other people outside of just the practitioner. I tend to give off very large amounts of heat without a significant change in my core body temperature. I do not know why.

Third

For whatever reason, some people simply never develop any ability to sense ki, even if practicing correctly. Maybe they just suck, maybe they are not very sensitive in general. I have no idea.

[Trevor Johnson]

Ki is not a state of mind. At least not as discussed above. Ki is a physically experiencable thing. This may be sensed in the form of heat, like a mist rising from your skin. It may be sensed flowing through your body. It can be directed through correct practice. Now, this does NOT mean it is some kind of metaphysical crap. I don't know what causes these sensations. In part taiji and other forms of qi gong, and even correctly practiced meditation, strenghtens your fascial system and has some effect on your blood flow. Thus, ki may be entirely physical in nature. I don't know, and I don't care. Ki is also perceptible to other people outside of just the practitioner. I tend to give off very large amounts of heat without a significant change in my core body temperature. I do not know why.

Third

For whatever reason, some people simply never develop any ability to sense ki, even if practicing correctly. Maybe they just suck, maybe they are not very sensitive in general. I have no idea.

For your second point, I believe that I can do that as well, without "proper" practice. I've done it. It's basic biofeedback. Same with the bloodflow. I believe that I mentioned this a page back or so.

It's possible that those who don't sense chi, to address your third point, aren't paying attention to extraneous sensations. These are side effects of meditation, not its end. Those who can tell what they're sensing and know that it's not a mystical side-effect, but a physiological side-effect, probably don't "feel" it the same way.

[Richard Tolson]

Harry,
I asked the question exactly as I did because I wanted to hear from others who espoused the traditional views on chi. I was taught as they were taught. I simply changed some of my views. That doesn't mean that I do not value the beliefs and input of others.

Daniel,
You are correct that meditation can induce hallucinations and delusions in certain situations. After all, those who meditate may be stimulating various brain centers, the effect of which may be unknown to them. Some of these centers can cause visual, auditory and other sensory hallucinations. Sometimes our perceptions of "reality" can really be stretched during meditation.
Also, you said that you were not sure what causes the physical manifestations of "chi" that you described. It is the stimulation of certain areas of the brain through meditation. These effects have been tested and proven by medical science
BTW, one of the best books that I have seen on the neurological effects of meditation is Why God Won't Go Away by Andrew Newberg, M.D. and Eugene D'Aquili, M.D., PhD.. Both men are medical doctors who have specialized in neurology. I would highly recommend this book to all who are interested in meditation and hypnosis.

[Cufaol]

About the 'stretching of reality': I guess none of you guys is going to believe this but hey, I'll just give it a shot.

When Dreaming, or when I'm meditating, I regulary have this scenes played in my mind. Well, let's just call it dreams. So far, no prob. However, these dreams, tend to become real. And not as in; I say a giant pink bunny walking across my town. But more like when I'm having a conversation, I sometimes remember this dream, and know exactly what will happen and what is going to be said for the next few seconds/minutes.
The strange thing is that I know someone else who has this same thing.

I know it's maybe a bit of topic, but I just wanted to tell you guys.
(btw, now would be a good time for puns I gather...)

regards,c

[Harry Cook]

It has been said here that the cultivation of ch’i has nothing to do with strength. This claim simply ignores the huge number of references to developing power through ch’i found in Chinese sources.
According to the Wei Sheng I Chin Ching (1875) for example the training will develop ‘divine strength’ in ‘the inside of the bones’, and ‘the fingers will be able to go through a bullock’s abdomen and the palm on edge will be able to decapitate a bullock’s head.'
According to Yang Jwing-Ming it was the cultivation of ch’i that allowed Shaolin monks ‘to withstand strong blows, edged weapons, and even cavity press’ (ie attacks to the vital points). Chi Kung 1985 p104
Lu Kuan Yu in his Secrets of Chinese Meditation (1969) tells the story of Chan Master Hsu Yun who lifted a huge boulder to regain authority over a group of disobedient porters. According to Lu Kuan Yu ‘there was nothing miraculous in this for Hsu Yun merely used the power of prana in his hands to displace the boulder.’ page 211
These are just a few examples. Even a cursory study of the literature will show that one of the aspects of ch’i is that it is supposed to function as a superior kind of strength, not dependant on muscular contraction but on breath, intention, etc etc, and of course this aspect could be easily tested, as I suggested before
Harry Cook

[Exorcist_Fist]

Harry

Biofeedback

[quote]It's possible that those who don't sense chi, to address your third point, aren't paying attention to extraneous sensations. These are side effects of meditation, not its end. Those who can tell what they're sensing and know that it's not a mystical side-effect, but a physiological side-effect, probably don't "feel" it the same way.[quote]

I agree. Who's to say that chi and bio feedback aren't the same thing? Is it so upsetting that it's not the mystical thing that many people believe it is? That being said, I took part in biofeedback experiments during my junior high biology class. The physical sensations are significantly different. Certainly though, there is no reason to believe that the sensations are not simply the product of a specific form of exercise, coupled with standard biofeedback. After all, I get warm after running too.

Strength

The literature you sight may perhaps be incorrect, or mistranslations or exaggerations. If you read stories about Chen Fa Ke-- one of the great modern lights of taiji--there are several stories of him practicing the form a hundred times a day. Since his form of taiji takes about 20 min to complete a single form... The fact is that this is a mistranslation. In chinese the term 100 is frequently used to mean "many", just as if I were to say "I punched a heavy bag a million times today". Another famous story tells of CFK killing a monstrous dog that had terrorized a neighborhood with a single kick. An eyewitness later stated that the dog was actually roughly the size of a medium breed terrier.

In short, don't believe the hype. I can quote greek mythology and ask why people can't fly on wings made of beeswax and feathers anymore. Essentially you are doing the same by quoting exaggerated chinese myths.

Here's another story for you.

A Xing Yi master was demonstrating swordplay for the provincial governor and his wife. His technique was quite famous, so the two viewers were hoping for quite a show. At the end of part of the demonstration, two men rush forward and threw a bucket of water on the XY master.

Dripping wet, the XY guy asked what the hell was going on. The wife of the governor said, "You must not be very good. I heard a true swordmaster should be able to block all the drops of water, and remain dry."

The XY master shook his head and said, "Madam, you read too many fairy tales."

Regarding the neurological studies of meditation, I have read the book you mentioned. Not being a neurologist I personally cannot comment on its validity.

And one more time...

It's turtles all the way down young man.

[Harry Cook]

The transalations may be wrong, but I have a degree in Chinese and I have looked at some of the original texts, and it is clear to me that the tales told of the chi masters are accurate enough.
The fact is that all the stuff about ch'i is subjective. If ch'i exercises could produce superior physical manifestations then the Chinese olympic athletes would be using them. They don't.
Harry Cook

[UshiDeshi]

Richard,

In my humble opinion Engery Cultivation & Meditation are two of the most important parts of Martial Arts. I study Kosho Shorei Ryu, which consists of 8 arts, the 1st is Energy Cultivation and the 7th is Meditation. The best Self Defense starts with YOU!! We study Neigong and Chigong as well as follow Andrew Cohens teachings of Impersonal enlightenment and meditation. Engergy Cultivation and Taichi allows you to become more sensitive with feeling the engergies that flow through you and the individual you are trying to help or defend your self against.
If you really look into the old Traditional Japanese and Chinese arts, they all included meditation. A Samurai had to train his mind to be calm in the midst of battle.

P.S. By "old" I mean over 500 years old.

[Exorcist_Fist]

it is clear to me that the tales told of the chi masters are accurate enough.

Let me get this straight. You think they are accurate, but you think that they are indicative of a physical impossibility. In what way are they accurate then?

Turtles all the way down!

[Richard Tolson]

Richard,

We study Neigong and Chigong as well as follow Andrew Cohens teachings of Impersonal enlightenment and meditation. Engergy Cultivation and Taichi allows you to become more sensitive with feeling the engergies that flow through you and the individual you are trying to help or defend your self against.

Peter,
Glad to hear from another practitioner of these ideas. I am unfamiliar with the teachings of Andrew Cohen. Can you elaborate on his ideas?
I do agree that not all aspects of chi training can be boiled down to neurology. However, I can't even begin to explain or substantiate some of the things I have experienced, so I don't even try.

[Trevor Johnson]

Richard,

In my humble opinion Engery Cultivation & Meditation are two of the most important parts of Martial Arts. I study Kosho Shorei Ryu, which consists of 8 arts, the 1st is Energy Cultivation and the 7th is Meditation. The best Self Defense starts with YOU!! We study Neigong and Chigong as well as follow Andrew Cohens teachings of Impersonal enlightenment and meditation. Engergy Cultivation and Taichi allows you to become more sensitive with feeling the engergies that flow through you and the individual you are trying to help or defend your self against.
If you really look into the old Traditional Japanese and Chinese arts, they all included meditation. A Samurai had to train his mind to be calm in the midst of battle.

P.S. By "old" I mean over 500 years old.

Roighto then.
Mmm, so the meditation to be calm I agree with, but what has that to do with chi? IF you're talking about the flow of physical force within your own and an opponent's body, the chi metaphor makes sense. If you're talking about building up a PPE reservoir, go play Rifts. And by physical force I'm talking things like torque, etc. Mechanics, in other words. Meditation seems to me to be in opposition to this understanding, since the knowledge you need is both internal and external. What you feel within you while meditating is useless without the complementing force from outside, that is, what your opponent feels.

If you want to get that, just train things like stickyhands, reaction drills, etc. Deep concentration on yourself promotes a solipsistic view of forces that's going to hurt when you actually try to use it.

[Trevor Johnson]

Harry,
I asked the question exactly as I did because I wanted to hear from others who espoused the traditional views on chi. I was taught as they were taught. I simply changed some of my views. That doesn't mean that I do not value the beliefs and input of others.

This particular turn of phrase makes me wonder, did you post only wanting to hear from those who believe as you do? Because if you did, there's rather few on this board. As you no doubt have already noticed... The concept of chi has changed rather a lot over the years, and current concepts are very far from its origins as an idea. Honestly, the mystical inner forces stuff sounds like a little too much narcotics, not enough training.

[Exorcist_Fist]

Trevor, mind if I ask about this:

These are side effects of meditation, not its end.

What in your mind is the end of meditation?

[Harry Cook]

Silent Dan, when I said the reports of the chi masters were accurate, I meant the translations of the stories were accurate, as you seem to be of the opinion that the sources I cited were innacurate. The details given in the various Taoist, Buddhist etc etc works reflect the traditional beliefs about the way the masters of ch'i are supposed to be able to manipulate this energy.
However when we try to put these things to the test they fail miserably.
Let us go back to some basics. It is clear that ch'i is meant to function as a kind of strength - the stories are legion of ch'i masters lifting huge stones, knocking opponents over with minimal or zero contact etc etc. These tales are repeated ad nauseum by proponents of this kind of thing.
This can be tested - lift weights, enter a wresting/judo/mma competition and use this power. This would be a fair, empirical test of this 'energy'.
As I said before relying on subjective experience is no use; mental hospitals have patients who 'know' they are Napoleon - it doesn't make them Emperor of the French.
As for Andrew Cohen see http://www.themotherofgod.com/
Just seems like another yoga based cult to me. It is worth reading The Guru Papers Joel Kramer & Diana Alstad, Frog 1993 before you get too deep into this kind of thing.
Harry Cook