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Thread: Pressure points for those of us with poor aim.

  1. #46
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    I wouldn't count on using pressure points to end a fight.. But I think there are a number of major pressure points that could probably help end it, and being visually impaired you can probably find them fairly easily.

    Like some mentioned already, near the ear, temple, also the solarplexus is remarkable for taking the fight out of people. A quick elbow strike to that area will usually sit a person down for a while.

    There's also a ring of tissue about 1 inch above the eblow on the bottom of the arm. Squeezing this extremely hard during grappling will allow you some control of the arm. Take it as more of an opportunistical thing, don't rely on it to accomplish your goal entirely.

    Also some points on the side of the rib cage, jab in with a knee or just grab really hard in the area and dig in with the tip of your thumb and hope you hit it. Even if you miss the point itself, it's still painful as all hell.

    Just stick with the major pressure centres and even without being able to see them, you can find them quickly as long as you know your orientation in respect to the opponents body.

    RE: Kiai jutsu, some people believe it, some don't, a kiai doesn't need to 'knock a person over'. A kiai let loose into someones ear at point blank range might as well have the same effect as a flashbang grenade going off nearby, it can really be rattling if you're not expecting it. You've never experienced a good kiai if it didn't cause you some hesitation immediately afterward hearing it.
    Cory Burke
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  2. #47
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    One other one that is easy enough to find is about 45 degrees down and outside of the nipple, where the pec seems to end and the ribs begin. You can grab and dig fingers under there, or try a single-knuckle punch/dig right up in there. Hurts nicely. Grab and pull won't actually tear anything, but it will hurt.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    One other one that is easy enough to find is about 45 degrees down and outside of the nipple, where the pec seems to end and the ribs begin.
    1) You can grab and dig fingers under there, or try a single-knuckle punch/dig right up in there. Hurts nicely. Grab and pull won't actually tear anything, but it will hurt.
    1) Ummm….in a word “no”. That is an example of poor bunkai that is commonly passed around. I had people attempt that on me and it has never worked. In fact I have never seen it work on anyone…..unless they let them do it.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradoxbox
    RE: Kiai jutsu, some people believe it, some don't, a kiai doesn't need to 'knock a person over'. A kiai let loose into someones ear at point blank range might as well have the same effect as a flashbang grenade going off nearby, it can really be rattling if you're not expecting it. You've never experienced a good kiai if it didn't cause you some hesitation immediately afterward hearing it.
    If you've read "Dueling with O'sensei," by Ellis Amdur, he mentions some of the training in kiai-jutsu that he has had in the koryu. I've also heard one of the kiais of one of the ryu he knows, this wierd wailing thing that I frankly wouldn't EVER want to hear behind me in the dark. It even beats a screech owl or the bagpipes!
    The amount of training required, however, is a bit much for me in terms of practical use. It seems to involve a lot of very subtle psychological self-manipulation, for want of a better term, in order to induce a similar effect in the other person. It's not just all about the sound. Myself, I like the screech in the ear approach. Works nicely. If you can convince someone you're psycho with it, even better.

    Given that this is the kyusho jutsu section, I should probably say something about them as well. One thing you might want to read instead of Dillman is the Bubishi, a book which has greatly influenced both Chinese and Okinawan martial arts. I'm assuming you've got good enough vision for reading, yes? It's got a lot of pressure points in it, both ones that are supposedly medicinal and ones that are either painful or deadly. Pat McCarthy's done an excellent translation of the Bubishi, with much background material to help with comprehension. I'd skip the medicinal points, myself, but the painful points are useful.
    Another book you might want to look at is Karate-do Kyohan. It has much the same list, but may be more or less useful to you because it's a much SMALLER list and not so cluttered.

    I should mention that pressure points don't always work. This is why, you may remember, I likened them to whipped cream and a cherry earlier in the thread. All they do is make good ice cream better, but if the ice cream is lousy, you're stuck. In the case of pressure points, you need a solid mechanical advantage. The pressure points may make it easier, but won't make a technique work if it otherwise would have failed.
    The reasons that pressure points don't always work are several:
    1. The person may not have that particular pressure point. There's one on the back that I use when grappling, in the sure and certain knowledge that I don't have it. Sometimes payback ain't! My girlfriend is missing a few in the arm.
    2. They may be drunk or drugged, or just raging. If you aren't feeling pain, the pressure points won't work on you. You may feel them when the high wears off, if someone's hit you hard enough to lay a bruise there, but that's later, and just a bruise.
    3. As I believe I mentioned earlier, sometimes the muscles can cover the point and protect it. Many of the pressure points I know don't work well if the person is in sanchin stance with tense muscles. One I know cannot be applied during a wrist lock because the wrist lock covers it. If you apply it before you do the lock, it works fine.
    The solution to this is obvious. MOVE them! You need to try various points that you think are worthwhile, and figure out, for the repertoire that YOU find useful, when they are usable.
    Sometimes, in order to get someone with a pressure point, you need to bend their body a little, or twist their arm. Sometimes you need them to straighten their arm.
    There are a great many strikes worth doing when you have someone bent over or twisted, because suddenly those strikes do a lot of damage. If they stand there straight with muscles tensed, then those strikes don't work as well and they laugh at you.
    What this means for pressure points is the same as it means for punching. If you get someone bent over or twisted, in the middle of the hullabaloo that is a real fight, you may not have time for the picture-perfect attack that everyone idealizes and talks about. It doesn't matter, because you now have a plethora of not-so-perfect shots that can do a lot of damage to a target that isn't so perfect itself. Go for it!

    Experiment. Try various pressure points, see which ones work when, and find progressively tougher friends to try them on.
    Just don't rely on them to the exclusion of all else, or you'll be sorry.
    Last edited by Trevor Johnson; 1st August 2005 at 08:08.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    1) Given that this is the kyusho jutsu section, I should probably say something about them as well. One thing you might want to read instead of Dillman is the Bubishi, a book which has greatly influenced both Chinese and Okinawan martial arts. I'm assuming you've got good enough vision for reading, yes? It's got a lot of pressure points in it, both ones that are supposedly medicinal and ones that are either painful or deadly. Pat McCarthy's done an excellent translation of the Bubishi, with much background material to help with comprehension. I'd skip the medicinal points, myself, but the painful points are useful.
    Another book you might want to look at is Karate-do Kyohan. It has much the same list, but may be more or less useful to you because it's a much SMALLER list and not so cluttered.
    2) I should mention that pressure points don't always work. This is why, you may remember, I likened them to whipped cream and a cherry earlier in the thread. All they do is make good ice cream better, but if the ice cream is lousy, you're stuck.
    3) In the case of pressure points, you need a solid mechanical advantage. The pressure points may make it easier, but won't make a technique work if it otherwise would have failed. The reasons that pressure points don't always work are several:
    A) 1. The person may not have that particular pressure point. There's one on the back that I use when grappling, in the sure and certain knowledge that I don't have it. Sometimes payback ain't! My girlfriend is missing a few in the arm.
    B) As I believe I mentioned earlier, sometimes the muscles can cover the point and protect it.

    1) A quick not on the Bubishi…anybody’s translation. The original book was a collection of “crib notes” that were passed from teacher to student. More than likely the teacher didn’t just say “here go read this and you will be able to understand and do kyusho techniques”. More than likely it was “hands on” instruction with the teacher explaining and possibly demonstrating techniques from it and how to heal certain injuries that occur from training. To assume that you can read such a book and have anything but an infinitesimal knowledge of kyusho is absurd and immature.
    2) I have noticed that people that say this are usually the people that are poorly trained and trying to apply them in the wrong situations. For example I would not try to do a mawashigeri to the head if I was standing in a crowded place. Doesn’t make sense to do it because the situation warrants a different response.
    3) Can you explain to the people on E-Budo how long and from whom you have trained pressure points/kyusho with and in what possible way are you qualified to coach others on the subject?


    A) Uhhh you are talking about a subject that I happen to be trained and licensed in…..everyone has the same number of points.
    B) Again I ask where and how long you have trained with an expert in pressure points/kyusho?

  6. #51
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    Robert,

    What is Oyata Senseis take on using PP on someone who is intoxicated or on something? This is not a joke it is a serious question. Has he said anything as to whether to try and do them or to go with something different?

    Additionally what works on someone who is relaxed and expecting a shot doesn't neccesarily work on the opponent who's angry and expecting a confrontation. I'm not saying it can't work but I believe it is much harder. Hence a big portion of fighting IMO is strategy and tactics. Someone expecting a fight can be swayed to let their guard down and Bing, Bang, Boom get nailed. There are other factors but wanted to get your take on them.


    Mike Mitchell

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maddog Mitchell
    Robert,

    1) What is Oyata Senseis take on using PP on someone who is intoxicated or on something? This is not a joke it is a serious question. Has he said anything as to whether to try and do them or to go with something different?
    2) Additionally what works on someone who is relaxed and expecting a shot doesn't neccesarily work on the opponent who's angry and expecting a confrontation. I'm not saying it can't work but I believe it is much harder. Hence a big portion of fighting IMO is strategy and tactics.
    3) Someone expecting a fight can be swayed to let their guard down and Bing, Bang, Boom get nailed. There are other factors but wanted to get your take on them.
    Mike Mitchell
    1) I don’t know. I’ll go get drunk and ask him. Seriously, his advice is stay away from those kinds of people. I don’t think I have ever heard him comment on whether PP techniques work on drunk people. Personally I never have a plan of attack since I don’t know what they are going to do. If I guess one thing and they do something else….I’m screwed. If I think OK, I am going to do this PP on his torso and the guy bends over to tackle me I am SOL. Most likely I would probably use tuite on them if possible since it’s an easier way to control someone. If you know where one of there arms is that’s one less thing to worry about right….
    2) There are couple of benefits to someone who is angry. For one they can’t think straight, and another people that are angry don’t move as well. People ( the defender) should stay calm and use those two things to their advantage.
    3) That kind of relates to what I said above. Keep calm, look for potential openings because they are not thinking straight. Sometimes I will go on to one of those websites that have all those videos of crashes and people getting in fights. I look at the fight mpegs and try and look for clues to find out what starts the physical violence and how I might handle it if faced with the same problem and what I might do different.

  8. #53
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    Robert,

    I'd be interested on his take other than the obvious of trying to stay away.

    I can tell you from first hand experience that some don't work at all including grappling/tegumi and tuite against a person on something. Hell just recently we experienced one guy who was tazzered and didn't go down and continue to walk towards the Police Officers. Another guy was 6'9 and 300lbs he was tazzered 3 times and still was fighting. Flashlight to the head ended that one. That's Bouncer Tuite

    Good posts! I found that strangulation techniques work better atleast for me.

    Regards,

    Mike Mitchell

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maddog Mitchell
    Robert,

    1) I'd be interested on his take other than the obvious of trying to stay away.
    2) I can tell you from first hand experience that some don't work at all including grappling/tegumi and tuite against a person on something.
    3) Hell just recently we experienced one guy who was tazzered and didn't go down and continue to walk towards the Police Officers. Another guy was 6'9 and 300lbs he was tazzered 3 times and still was fighting. Flashlight to the head ended that one. That's Bouncer Tuite

    Good posts! I found that strangulation techniques work better atleast for me.

    Regards,

    Mike Mitchell

    Mike,

    1) To be honest I haven’t ever heard him comment on using PP on someone under the influence of something. Like I said before, PPs have a time and a place so if you have experience with someone that is so out of it they feel nothing then PPs would most likely no be an option.
    2) Yes I had some experience with that situation as well. I thought I was going to break the guy in half....he eventually calmed down enough that I could let him go.
    3) 6'9 and 300lbs is a big boy. What the hell was he on a “roid-pcp-crystalmeth” cocktail? What did you use one of those big 25 battery long Mag Lites?

  10. #55
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    Robert,

    I realize he's never commented on them before, but I'm sure he raised a little hell back in his day, just curious if he had a story or two.

    These big guys are scarry sometimes, add steroids, alcohol and some are on cocaine and you've got trouble.

    Thanks for the replies!

    Mike Mitchell


    PS It was the Butt end of a maglite via a hammerfist strike

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradoxbox
    RE: Kiai jutsu, some people believe it, some don't, a kiai doesn't need to 'knock a person over'. A kiai let loose into someones ear at point blank range might as well have the same effect as a flashbang grenade going off nearby, it can really be rattling if you're not expecting it. You've never experienced a good kiai if it didn't cause you some hesitation immediately afterward hearing it.
    In a way, Kendo relies on kiai Jutsu. You can break someones posture by your kiai (or at least my sensei can break mine by his) enough to get in a cut. I hadn't actually considered this before now.

    Cheers,

    Mads
    Mads Gabrielsen

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabro
    In a way, Kendo relies on kiai Jutsu. You can break someones posture by your kiai (or at least my sensei can break mine by his) enough to get in a cut. I hadn't actually considered this before now.

    Cheers,

    Mads
    Works in all sorts of situations. I've used it, and had it used on me. Know one 7th kyu who, a few days ago, got attacked by a Russian pimp. Not a knife-competent one, luckily. What saved her was her repeated furious screaming. Flustered him so much he couldn't subdue her before she broke free. Cops met her at the end of the alley, having heard the screams, and the pimp's now in police custody. She's looking forward to the prosecution.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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