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Thread: Shinkendo: did/do you enjoy it?

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    BaktoBasics Guest

    Default Shinkendo: did/do you enjoy it?

    Hello. I ahve found a Shinkendo Dojo 5 mins from home. It looks great! I would however like to ask what everyonethinsk of this art?

    Is it legit? What is it based on?

    Thanks!

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    Merry greetings and welcome to e-budo! You may find that no-one will answer you until you add your real name to your posts [we've had some tossers turn up before]. There are some shinkendo practitioners on here who can give you a lot of information about the style. Glad you have found a good dojo.
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

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    Sorry - Rocky Vialli

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    Exclamation Check it out for yourself

    Quote Originally Posted by BaktoBasics
    Hello. I ahve found a Shinkendo Dojo 5 mins from home. It looks great! I would however like to ask what everyonethinsk of this art?

    Is it legit? What is it based on?

    Thanks!
    If you have not already done so, check out: http://www.shinkendo.com/main.html

    It's a new art, founded in the 1990's as I recall, by Toshishiro Obata.

    The art has its basis in Toyama Ryu, which is based on the sword style of the Imperial Japanese Army. The founder trained in this style as well as others.

    Shinkendo has its admirers and detractors.

    Legitimacy? It's a "religious" question. Search here and on other forums for that one. Who gives any founder legitimacy in any new art?

    There are also threads discussing "checking out the classes." Check them out too, especially if you have no experience. The quality of the instructor and the attitude imparted to the dojo will determine how your training experience will unfold. Trust your own instinct to choose; do not be afraid to walk away if you sense something is not quite right.

    HTH,
    Raymond Sosnowski

    "Setsunintoh, Katsuninken, Shinmyohken."

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    I am not an instructor in any style of martial art and do not officially represent any style. All comments are my personal opinion.

    I've had the opportunity to observe Shinkendo being taught first hand for about 6 months and also have several years first hand experience with ZNKR (Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei/All Japan Kendo Federation) Setei Iaido and have briefly observed Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. I found Shinkendo to be much more dynamic than Seitei or what I saw of MJER (although I must admit I didn't see everything taught in MJER). I will not say that any of these styles was "better" than the others, only that they are different.

    Shinkendo isn't a koryu (traditional style) in it's own right, it's a gendai (modern) style but it's founder and head head instructor Toshishiro Obata studied a number of traditional Japanese martial arts including Yagyu shinkage-ryu swordsmanship when he was younger. There is also the option of learning the Nakamura version of Toyama ryu Battodo as part of Shinkendo. Toyama ryu is a style of swordsmanship taught at the Toyama military academy in Japan.

    Shinkendo does include tameshigiri (test cutting rolled up reed matting) as part of it's curriculum but the style does not concentrate on tameshigiri at the expense of other aspects of effective swordsmanship. The test cutting is used as a form of evaluating/testing to check if people are performing specific cuts correctly/effectively.

    Is Shinkendo "legitimate"? Legitimate in what sense? It's not a traditional style that was being taught/practiced before 1876 (the year the social class of samurai was officially abolished and wearing swords in public in Japan was banned) but from what I have seen first hand, Shinkendo instructors do not try to claim that it is a traditional style in it's own right. Even among the traditional styles like MJER, it's the senior instructors inside that style who decide what is "legitimate" and what is not within their style. Instructors from other styles do not have a say in regulating the standards and practices of styles they do not teach.

    From conversations I have had with one Shinkendo instructor there have been problems in the past with some people learning Shinkendo then leaving and starting up their own private dojos and trying to teach Shinkendo without the proper approval and certification from the Shinkendo head instructor, Toshishiro Obata. I don't know if that is still happening today, but if you want to know if a particular instructor is "legitimate" within the Shinkendo orginisation, they have their own official web site where you could ask about the credentials of an instructor you're not sure about. If the instructor is approved and certified by the Shinkendo head instructor, they'll be able to tell you so. If the instructor you are asking about isn't certified, the orginisation would like to know about it to prevent their style from being mis-represented by people who are not certified to teach it.

    You'll need to talk to a certified instructor for specific details about what is taught in Shinkendo.

    http://www.shinkendo.com/main.html
    Gareth Bull
    Melbourne, Australia

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    Quote Originally Posted by GarethB
    ...There is also the option of learning the Nakamura version of Toyama ryu Battodo as part of Shinkendo. Toyama ryu is a style of swordsmanship taught at the Toyama military academy in Japan.
    No, Gunto Toho was taught at Toyama Gakko, the Toyama style was later formed based on that. Nakamura Ryu is one of the three main lines that came from Toyama Ryu. The Nakamura version of Toyama taught in Shinkendo is Shinkendo. Not assigning a value judgement here. Arts are contextual (despite exceptions like seitei iai). Toyama forms in the context of Nakamura-ryu are Nakamura-Ryu. The same forms in the context of Shinkendo are Shinkendo. Forms express the concepts of the art. If the art has a different focus, the forms will be different, even if they are the same. Although Obata sensei was authorized to teach and lead Nakamura Ryu in the US, he left that organization to form his own style. Nakamura sensei continued to lead, teach and develop his system. The current authorized head of Nakamura Ryu in the US is Guy Power sensei. There are several dojo in the US and England that train in Nakamura Ryu and are directly associated with the home dojo in Japan and the Japanese batto federations. There are many instructors that claim to teach Nakamura-Ryu or the Toyama forms from that style. The forms are not difficult, but if you are not in Nakamura-Ryu, you are not doing Nakamura-Ryu.

    ... there have been problems in the past with some people learning Shinkendo then leaving and starting up their own private dojos and trying to teach Shinkendo without the proper approval and certification
    exactly.

    Some of this is history, and as such should be common knowledge. Some of this becomes politics, but hopefully should not affect our focus on training and individual development.


    Rocky,
    Shinkendo has a lot to teach. Many arts do. Obata sensei has done a good job of making Japanese swordsmanship more accessible to non-Japanese. His organization is wide-spread and well-organized. If the dojo is a recognized one within that organization, I am sure you will learn a great deal. Enjoy your training.

    Dave
    Dave Drawdy
    "the artist formerly known as Sergeant Major"

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    Hi all,

    People quit an art all the time and do things they aren't supposed to with it, but they are typically shut down pretty quickly in Shinkendo. All licensed dojo are listed and kept updated on the shinkendo.com dojo listing:

    http://www.shinkendo.com/dojomap.html

    Shinkendo may be for some, and not for others. One point to consider is that there are many Shinkendo dojo operating both nationally and internationally, and Obata Sensei is a highly skilled and licensed exponent of swordsmanship and Aikido.

    The Nakamura version of Toyama taught in Shinkendo is Shinkendo. Not assigning a value judgement here. Arts are contextual (despite exceptions like seitei iai). Toyama forms in the context of Nakamura-ryu are Nakamura-Ryu. The same forms in the context of Shinkendo are Shinkendo. Forms express the concepts of the art. If the art has a different focus, the forms will be different, even if they are the same. Although Obata sensei was authorized to teach and lead Nakamura Ryu in the US, he left that organization to form his own style. Nakamura sensei continued to lead, teach and develop his system. The current authorized head of Nakamura Ryu in the US is Guy Power sensei. There are several dojo in the US and England that train in Nakamura Ryu and are directly associated with the home dojo in Japan and the Japanese batto federations. There are many instructors that claim to teach Nakamura-Ryu or the Toyama forms from that style. The forms are not difficult, but if you are not in Nakamura-Ryu, you are not doing Nakamura-Ryu.
    Dave, I think I understand what you were trying to say, but just to avoid misunderstandings, I'd like to clarify a few points. Toyama-ryu is going to be a bit different in any line/branch of the art you see. That in itself is not good or bad. The Gunto Soho forms were even changed while they were being taught in the military, and in the Nakamura line, Nakamura Sensei was continuously changing various points in the kata, some big, some small. At least during the period that Obata Sensei was studying. As such, the Toyama-ryu that is taught as an adjunct to Shinkendo now consists of 4 different versions of kata, all representing major developmental stages during the time of Obata Sensei's study. The first is the straight Gunto Soho kata, and the rest are other evolutions ending with a set of advanced variations created primarily by Obata Sensei. Thus, students of Toyama-ryu under this line not only learn "a" version of the kata, but 4 different versions that give the student insight into the various periods of time they were being taught. All the versions have interesting technical aspects to them that are unique and worth preserving (in our opinion), which is why 4 versions are taught.

    Shinkendo was formally founded in 1990, and was in fact not "based" on Toyama-ryu. The kata section and tachiuchi section in particular have no relationship. Toyama-ryu is only a sword drawing and tameshigiri art (excluding the ippon style kumitachi, which most of the Obata line do not study anymore). Sword drawing is only one of five components to Shinkendo, and aside from the draw, the shinkendo batto-ho kata involve techniques that are also not borrowed from Toyama-ryu. As far as Tameshigiri goes, it would be more accurate to say that Obata Sensei's tameshigiri was strongly influenced by Nakamura Sensei as opposed to Toyama-ryu. And even at that, there are many cutting patterns and approaches to cutting in Shinkendo that are (well, were) unique to Obata Sensei. Finally, Toyama-ryu was subsumed within Shinkendo, but is taught and ranked as a separate art, under the Kokusai Toyama-ryu Renmei, founded by Obata Sensei:

    http://www.toyama-ryu.org/

    As far as Nakamura Sensei goes, Obata Sensei never resigned or left his organization. Obata Sensei was licensed to be the Beikoku Honbu-cho (north american chief instructor) of Toyama-ryu, Nakamura-ryu, and USA Battodo by Nakamura Sensei directly, and although he does not associate with Nakamura Sensei's organization anymore, these licenses were never rescinded or returned. Guy Power is the head of Nakamura Sensei's organization in the US, but to my knowledge, Obata Sensei is still the senior ranking instructor under Nakamura Sensei specifically in the US. I don't bring any of this up to "compete" with anyone else teaching Toyama-ryu or Nakamura-ryu in the US, or to undermine or slight Guy in any way. But every time someone trys to recap Obata Sensei's past or current involvement or ligitimacy in Shinkendo or Toyama-ryu, points and perspectives such as these never seem to come out quite right.

    Many believe that by licensing your own students independent of your instructor is "in effect" dissolving their relationship. From a practical standpoint this is true, but from a technical standpoint, this was not entirely the case. There were reasons that Obata Sensei felt that as the American Honbu-cho he couldn't properly transmit the arts given the set of circumstances he had at the time. He may not be active under Nakamura Sensei's organization anymore, but he did not resign as a student of Nakamura Sensei, and Nakamura Sensei did not fire him or rescind his licenses for doing things his own way in America. Nakamura Sensei wanted to see his teachings spread internationally, and that combined with a mutual respect that developed from their time together in Japan are likely the reasons why. I guarentee that those currently involved in the arts do not fully understand the relationship between Obata Sensei and Nakamura Sensei, as I am also sure that those of us who have studied with Obata Sensei do not know everything that has been said or done in Nakamura Sensei's organization. The past is the past, and there is no reason why arts like Toyama-ryu cannot be taught and enjoyed through the various extant lines. But I would like to see that certain historical points do not become muddled over time.

    As far as legitimacy in Toyama-ryu goes, there is none technically. Nobody was the recognized founder or headmaster, and members of the Imperial Army did not authorize or appreciate the Toyama-ryu name being used outside of the military context, which I understand is why Nakamura Sensei founded Nakamura-ryu in order to continue teaching Toyama-ryu. Toyama-ryu is an interesting art, and worth being preserved, but ligitimacy is going to be judged by who your teacher was, what level of initiation was reached under them, and what your ability level is. Toyama-ryu in Shinkendo is not Shinkendo, it is - for the most part - forms of Toyama-ryu that are not being taught anymore in Nakamura Sensei's organization. Yeah, there are many differences in the kata now from what I've seen, but that doesn't mean organization any of the organizations are better or worse. Toyama-ryu under the Obata line may or may not be for everyone, and vice-versa.

    In any event, I'm not trying to start a debate over this or turn this thread into something uncomfortable. If anyone has any comments or complaints, I'd be happy to discuss them with you privately if you like. Otherwise, like others have said, evaluate each dojo and instructor on a case-by-case basis. The instructor and dojo represents the majority of what most students will experience in a given art, so this factor is more crucial than the art itself in my opinion.

    With respect all around,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Default Very enjoyable!

    When I had a chance to train in it a few years ago, I found it to be very, very enjoyable and rewarding. Do yourself a favor, call the sensei and check it out for yourself.
    Arigato Gozaimasu.
    Sherman Chow

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    Nathan,
    I appreciate your taking the time to add more detail on the history and components of Shinkendo. I think there is no doubt that Shinkendo is a 'legitimate' art with a great deal to teach. I would personally wish that its US students were more active in the greater sword community in the US. I think that there is much we could learn from each other, not to mention the lasting value of the friendships and fellowships that could grow from this.
    There are several points in your post I do not fully agree with, but they can be discussed elsewhere.
    Respectfully,
    Dave
    Dave Drawdy
    "the artist formerly known as Sergeant Major"

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    BaktoBasics Guest

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    Thanks VERY mush for your in depth and helpful replies.

    The dojo I have access to is listed in shinkendo.com and the instructor was tought by Obata Sensei.

    I am looking forward to it - even the history, culture, concepts, bushido etc. Thanks again.

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    I've always been interested in the koryu, trying to learn as much about it as possible. As a matter of fact, I entered kendo with the hope that it would teach me some of the internal concepts of the koryu, and thus better prepare me for when I finally find a reliable koryu sensei. After pursuing kendo for 3 years now, I'm currently in a position where I have the opportunity to train in shinkendo at the local branch, and after reading this thread, a few questions popped up in my mind that I decided that I would pose to the resident experts.

    1) How similar is shinkendo to the koryu arts?
    2) What kind of physical training does shinkendo involve? Just suburi, ashi-sabaki, and waza, or is there more?
    3) Does anyone have any experience or comments concerning the Atlanta branch?


    Thanks in advance!
    -Jason Kumar

    Georgia Tech Kendo Club
    www.cyberbuzz.gatech.edu/kendoclub

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    Quote Originally Posted by BaktoBasics
    Thanks VERY mush for your in depth and helpful replies.

    The dojo I have access to is listed in shinkendo.com and the instructor was tought by Obata Sensei.

    I am looking forward to it - even the history, culture, concepts, bushido etc. Thanks again.

    According to the rules of the forum, you are required to sign every post with your real name. I know you gave it above, but it's technicaly not enough.

    There is a very easy way to set up your account to sign all your posts automatically so you don't have to remember. Click on the "User CP" option at the top of the screen. It's next to the FAQ link. Once that page loads you'll find an option on the left marked "Edit Signature". Click on that and put your real name in your signature. Then all your posts will have your name automatically. Including the one's you've already posted.

    Welcome to the forum.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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    I heard "saya-uchi" as an old and not often used any more term for iai memtioned in my old dojo.
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Armstrong
    I heard "saya-uchi" as an old and not often used any more term for iai memtioned in my old dojo.
    Interesting, I have heard another meaning for the term. Saya uchi was when you wanted to start a fight, you walked past the left side of one of the gentry and smacked the saya of your katana against his. Next thing you know, people around are taking 5 paces back and watching the show.

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    I was told that another meaning was when you belted someone with the sword still in the saya [if you were carrying it in your hand rather than in the obi]. The plot just thickens doesn't it!!
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

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