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Thread: Competition Judo versus Traditional Judo

  1. #1
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    Default Competition Judo versus Traditional Judo

    I have a very limited knowledge base regarding judo. However I have interest in learning judo. With that said I have no desire to train in a competition oriented, ne waza oriented approach to training.
    In the materials I have read there is much discussion given to the kata of judo but it also seems there is very little actual instruction time given to kata. Once again all of this is based upon little knowledge of judo, so forgive me if I am inaccurate.
    Does there exist in judo, dojo whose focus is on a more "traditional" judo?
    thanks for any input.
    Jeff
    Jeff Brown

  2. #2
    MarkF Guest

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    You do not want to compete, understandable, but not wise, nor do you want to grapple. You may want to be a little clearer in what you want to do in judo. You will never avoid both as they have always been a part of the Kodokan, particularly newaza (exactly what do you believe newaza to be, as with many, this is the most challenging area of this combative art?). If you strictly wish to learn only tachi-waza, you can specialize, but again, that is not so wise nor is it very possible. Judo is mainly a stand up art whose participants very often end up on the ground. While it may not seem practical to fight with your back on the ground, neither does remaining on your front.

    If you only want to do kata, you will have to skip this very area, as only one kata in judo is strictly done standing. In fact, you would have to skip entirely one of the three basic areas of training: 'Katame no kata (newaza)."

    There are kata instructors, but they usually teach only experienced judoka.

    Perhaps your understanding of the "tradition" of Judo is a bit skewed and most realize by your post that you do not know that much about it. It is true that there are more dojo invested in competition than there are of the kata, but we are in the middle of a major change back to kata and competition in such. It is found in all major competition today. Still, to learn judo, you will have to learn the "Randori no kata" at the very least which includes a great deal of newaza.

    Newaza IS a tradition of judo. Competition has always been included, even though reasons for it have changed. There are no more challenges for turf or the very reason even koryu schools competed. Shiai was meant to take that place in a new world. Also, as randori is the focus of training in judo, and always has been, you may want to do a little research on your own to learn why this is so. It goes back to, at the very least, the 17th century. Books abound on the subject as do other materials, so a little history is in order.

    If you want to start on the Internet, there are some very good, though incompete, histories of judo. Many explain the basics of what judo is, and read the same, but you can start with http://www.bstkd.com/judo.htm . Check the book review lists for reading material ( http://www.bestjudo.com is also a good source of recommended books and other types of media ). If you think of judo as a sport, then judo is in the same category of compative sports such as boxing and wrestling. Both are sports, but they also teach very effective ways of fighting, and self-defense.

    Kata, while important, is not taught above randori no kata in many dojo but this assumes the knowledge of two kata at a minimum, the nage no kata and the katame no kata (ground grappling). IOW, you need to know these kata, whether or not you believe them to be one or two kata, just to participate.

    Participation in competition or shiai, need not be your focus, but it is in your best interest to participate.

    Basically, those are the two areas on which you will focus, at least at first. If you consider the tradition of judo to be like koryu jujutsu, this has never been the case though judo IS jujutsu.

    Books abound on the subjects, and you would like recommendations, please ask. There are web sites that have very detailed reviews on books or the membership here can recommend some to you. The web sites above are about as complete a history as as found on the net. These web sites are not all there is but it is a beginning. There are always disputes on the facts so nothing is 100 per cent.

    I am especially interested in the reasons for avoiding ne waza. The avoidance of competition is not new by any means but I have never read a single post nor have I ever heard of anyone who does not want to train in ground grappling. As Judo is made up of mainly jujutsu technique it makes your post very intriguing.

    There are no stupid questions so please feel free to ask. Think about reading of judo. Most I know in other budo have a pretty good knowledge of judo even if they have never trained or trained for a short time.


    Welcome to the judo forum on E-budo.


    Mark

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    Default judo or jujutsu and 'thinking on one's feet'

    Very good response from MarkF.

    A kata based approach would really be more in the realm of a traditional Japanese jujutsu style where kata is often the primary if not sole way to achieve mastery. Perhaps you should investigate one of these older styles (such as the Kito ryu or Tenshin-yo ryu) from which judo sprang. Some stress standing technique to a greater degree than judo but judo already gives greater precedence to strong standing technique than say arts like BJJ.

    However if you are really interested in judo I think you should take in all it has to offer. Senseis generally are not in a position to cater to a student who wishes to only learn part of the curriculum. You could find a judoka would would be willing to teach the katas exclusively (which 'time wise' only a small percentage of normal judo practise is dedicated to and I think that while more time may have been spent on them in the bygone eras I don't believe they were the main way judoka spent their time in the dojo ever.) but following this method you would never be able to apply these techniques as well as any judoka who trained in the traditional uchikomi, randori, shiai, and kata approach. I believe that these have all been included in judo because the judoka believe that by removing any of them would serve to make judo weaker. That having been said, judoka will continue to argue about what percentage of each at different stages of development is most desirable for achieving the greatest benefits from training.

    I understand that shiai is often not something which many people starting judo believe will be for them, especially if they are older, injured, or smaller in stature but most dojos do not force unwilling students to engage in shiai. However with enough practise most judoka will develop the desire to participate in shiai and find that rather than being a mindless display of testosterone shiai affords them a unique opportunity to learn about applying their techniques while under pressure, with opponents who move differently than those they know in their own dojos and how to deal with adreneline while still thinking on one's feet.
    Matthew Rogers
    Scarborough Martial Arts Training Group
    http://www.spiritforging.com

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    Mark and Mateo, thanks so much for your responses. I failed to do a proper search prior to posting which I apologize for as well as my failure to elaborate my question more clearly. I am not opposed to learning ne waza or engaging in randori at all, in fact I am very interested in doing so. However I am not interested in training in a dojo which gauges its merit soley by the number of trophy's acquired. Nor am I looking to judo as a way to improve my fitness. Nor am I looking to judo as a means to improve the additional arts in which I train.
    I currently train in Hontai Yoshin ryu (koryu jujutsu), USAF aikido so I have those aspects of training. I guess a more accurate question would have been, How easy is it to find a judo dojo/sensei that does not place at the heart of it's purpose sport/competition judo? I have Kano's "Kodokan Judo" and was floored by the variety of technique and kata as well as the emphasis he placed on spirituality in training.
    I understand the importance of shiai in judo training as well as the role it has played historically in the creation of judo. But I also know mysel well enough to know, that is not where my interest lies. However I don't want to close the door on something that could be very rewarding due to my limited knowledge.
    On a semi related question. I have heard reference to a gathering of jujutsu masters called by Kano and photos existing from that meeting. Who was present and what year was that? I will continue to do some research and am planning on visiting the local judo dojo in town and see what they are about.
    Thanks for the dialog and the input, it is much appreciated.
    Jeff
    Jeff Brown

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    Default A different kettle of fish

    Morpheus,

    You latest posting does shed a different and much clearer light on the earlier post and its queries.

    I can't recommend a particular dojo in Kentucky but I think that I would be looking for an older Japanese national who was teaching out of a Japanese cultural centre or the like.

    Coming out of traditional jujutsu I can well understand that you appreciate and value the lessons that kata has to teach.

    You might try the "Ask Sensei" section of Judo-info.com or go on the judo Forum there to ask for teachers in your area with the kind of approach that you are looking for.

    On another note I think you might enjoy a book I recently purchased called "The Warrior's Path" where aging sensei of many budo talk about the value training has had to them at the sunset of their lives. Many interviewed are senior judoka who have the kind of spiritual goals you are interested in.

    Judo Formal Techniques by Draeger also shows the importance that some senior judoka believe should be placed upon the role of kata in judo training. (Old now, but still of value. Like the kata themselves.)
    Matthew Rogers
    Scarborough Martial Arts Training Group
    http://www.spiritforging.com

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    Jeff
    I understand where your coming from.
    IMHO Tournaments have not helped the Art, in recent years,
    alot has been watered down from the pre weight class art of Judo. Less classical throwing and more bent over wrestling but the competitors are still incredible.

    There is some room for improvement in regards to this but I dont think that the sport aspect should be dropped. It has alot of value.
    Keeping the art effective through testing the skill level of the practitioner against a resisting opponent.
    If it cant be tested it cant be trusted.
    The nature of the way the art is taught in the dojo and the level of competition attracts a differant type of person than most other Traditional art forms.

    INHO Judo attracts the toughest fighters and is the most effective for self defense. The pavement is harder than a kick or punch. Plus you have the option of endiing conflict by controling your atttacker without physically hurting them.
    It is also the most dangerous in competion and the hardest on your body of all the traditional arts.
    Chris McLean
    Martial Arts student

  7. #7
    MarkF Guest

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    Originally posted by Morpheus
    On a semi related question. I have heard reference to a gathering of jujutsu masters called by Kano and photos existing from that meeting. Who was present and what year was that? I will continue to do some research and am planning on visiting the local judo dojo in town and see what they are about.
    Thanks for the dialog and the input, it is much appreciated.


    There is one particularly famous photo of a gathering of the most senior koryu and meiji era jujutsu masters of the day, with Kano seated front and center. It is especially interesting as most of these masters were the same ones who participated in developing the Kodokan syllabus and a couple fought Kano's judo team in the Challenge match that pitted Kano's judoka against the toughest jujutsuka of the time. This shiai was sponsored by the Tokyo Police Department in a search for the better bugei in police men should train. Some say otherwise, but it was in 1885. Kodokan Judo won twelve of fifteen challenge matches with a sole judge to call an end to the matches. In those days, it was called shi-ni-ai and if you speak or understand romaji, better would be kanji, for the time, it was a better name. Today, as it was meant to be, it is symbolic combative victory/loss, instead of hurting you badly so as to need time to heal, you could go back again in a couple of days.

    Hontai Yoshin ryu, aside from the kito-ryu, tenjin shin'you ryu, are familiar to me and to many judoka. This included other schools of Yoshin ryu including Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu. The one thing which Kano did was, instead of excluding those who trained or led the many schools of jujutsu, he invited them to participate in the formation of the school. While he applied his academic view of his ideas, and definitely wanted something different from jujutsu, he certainly wasn't about to leave out what he had all ready mastered or what he may have wanted to master. His earliest judo students were also involved in this and the main syllabus was finalized in 1895. In that year, the Zen Nihon Butoku Kai was founded and a short time later standardized judo waza even further. Some of this was out of not appreciating Kano's internationalism, but it was also to do what eventually was done. Interestingly enough, judo was not a new term, so Kano searched for a different term to separate his jujutsu from the others, by taking the name Judo [most likely pronounced jiu no michi or yawara no michi then) from an old school of Kito-ryu called Jikishin Ryu Jiudo. Kanji are identical, and if I knew how to write it I would.

    Give me a bit of time and I'll find a picture, but it is fairly common on the Internet these days. I cannot recall if he is in this picture, but Kano invited a master of the jo to teach this particular weapon at the Kodokan. This came out of the meeting to which you may be referring, but it was not exactly called by Kano, he made a trip to a meeting of budoka of all stripes, including sword and other weapons, to the Butokukai. There were many demonstrations at this meeting.

    You also probably know the basics of the conversation between Kano Jigoro and Morihei Uyeshiba when Kano first came upon what Uyeshiba-sensei was teaching so they got along well. Kano-sensei called the aikibudo of Uyeshiba "The judo of 180 degrees" and explained that the jujutsu of judo was that of "90 degrees." This was the explanation to Kano's Kodokan students when some felt that they were getting second best.
    ***********

    I will find the photo and it probably won't take long, but you have something many who want to learn judo to augment what they have learned of aikido or any koryu have: Allergy to shiai. This is expected from many aikidoka, but they complement each other very nice. Check out or talk to Chuck Clark.. He is a well-respected judoka as well as aikido. Or, I should say "judo player."

    To be honest about searching for the right dojo and getting exactly what you do want will be a dojo by dojo search. There is no reason to tell you they are everywhere as they are not. Nevertheless, if you find a good teacher, and you take a class or two free, even if it isn't exactly what you want, you may want to get started until you do find him/her. It will be a search, or you will walk right into this dojo. It is a bit like finding or being accepted by the correct koryu master, it takes time, perhaps a bit of travel, and a bit of acceptance. Just like koryu, you search out the right teacher and not necessarily a particular budo. There should be someone out there but you know what to look for in a teacher which can be seen in the most senior students, too. Talk to those of your dojo. They may be of help.

    Let me scope out a couple of web sites so I can post at least that one picture. I do have a book containing the pic, but it is paperback making the pic of bad quality for posting.

    IOW, just do what you would normally do when choosing a place to train. One thing about judo, they are out there, ripe for the picking. You just need to look on more than one tree.

    BTW: I figured you must have had experience as you know what you want to avoid so I had a feeling you came from koryu or aikido. And here it is that you train in both.


    Mark

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    Thanks again for all the input.
    Mark, I was able to find the picture as well as some of the history by following the first link you posted, very interested reading. I would love to chat with you further regarding the history of judo as well as your experiences with your study.
    Matt, thanks for the suggestions on the reading material as well as in located a sensei. I live in Louisville, which has a pretty small Japanese population but I will see what I can find. About eight months ago I lucked in to finding a sensei of the Urasenke school of tea and have been enjoying studying under her so hopefully I will be as lucky in search of a judo sensei.
    I am going to schedule a time to visit the premiere judo dojo in town and see what goes from there.
    Chris, thanks for the support.
    Jeff
    Jeff Brown

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    I have similar problems. I started practicing Judo, but after 6 weeks I had an extremely serious shoulder separation, and I haven't been back since. I loved Judo practice (including the newaza), but I'm 30 years old and I don't think my body can handle the sort of training that seems to be the norm, based on the couple of Judo clubs I've seen. All of my friends who practiced Judo in college have quit for the same reason. Do you guys have any advice on finding a dojo to avoid injuries? I was thinking that a less competition-oriented dojo might be better, but I have no idea.

    Thanks,
    - Mike
    Michael Malkin

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    morpheus,

    I know of a good school HERE in Louisville, where you can learn traditional judo, and not worry about the modern competition aspect of the art.

    Seriously, if you want to dabble in judo, but not necessarily looking for join a school....let's talk...I think you know where to find me.

    Jim Mahanes
    Jim Mahanes

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