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Thread: Is this legitimate Shinkage?

  1. #16
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    Is it me or isn't this Ricky Gervais from the Office?

    Mat Rous

  2. #17
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    They've been discussed on the Kendo World forums a while ago (Misc. Events section). There were a couple of this dojo members participating as well.
    Andrei Arefiev

    -Moscow Eishinkai Dojo-
    www.eishinkai.ru

  3. #18
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    Steve,


    Yes, I'm fully aware of the Owari Kan-ryu (another style Mr. Armstrong belongs to). I just didn't see they claimed to be teaching it.. Still don't, heh.

    Oh well, maybe just an oversight on my part.


    But I would be curious to hear from their dojo members, if anyone can contact them [via KendoWorld].

    Thanks,
    - Alex Dale

  4. #19
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    The kendo-world thread about Chikara dojo is here. It's an interesting read.

    Some readily admit that there is absolutely no lineage or authenticity to speak of. Some claim it's real koryu because they have the cuts and broken knuckles to prove it. Challenges to duels, "the proof is in the pudding", bad war fiction, it's all there for all to see. One relevant quote from a student (by far the best behaved in the thread, I believe):

    For the kata, we do not have any formal named kata. Hopefully, that won't completely turn people off to our school. We do not claim to be part of either Yagyu Shinkage Ryu or Jikishikage Ryu, because honestly, we are not. What our sensei has taught is the Shinkage techniques that he has learned from training in Shinkage Ryu. He has deliberately chosen to eliminate the ancestry and dynasty for reasons that, as I said before, are his own and his to share, not mine. I believe in the core of his teachings and believe that he does know the Shinkage Ryu techniques from his previous training. Hence why we choose to say we teach Shinkage Ryu, but do not specifically name a school beyond that. Some people would say that makes us frauds, and in some people's eyes, we are.
    So all of their claims are based on what their instructor says, and their instructor made sure to disconnect himself totally from the art. Hence, not koryu, not Shinkage Ryu. Just swinging swords.

    It is, however, funny and somewhat sad to see people defend their school as koryu, and on the other hand recognizing that they are not "connected" in any way to a style or a senior of the ryu. What is koryu if it's not that living link to the style and history? Seems some people are really adamant defending a position that they don't even understand.

    ---
    Sebastien L.

  5. #20
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    Seems some people are really adamant defending a position that they don't even understand.
    Sebastien,
    If they understood koryu, they would not defend their school. The only way they can defend their position is through misunderstanding. I still want to know why they're wearing tasuke!
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgsmith
    Sebastien,
    If they understood koryu, they would not defend their school. The only way they can defend their position is through misunderstanding. I still want to know why they're wearing tasuke!
    Oh, one of the students explained it this way:

    the question of the cord on the sleeves...
    well, some things you do so that you can remember those that have gone before. I dont ask you why you wear armor that offers no real protection from a lethal cut under the arm or on the side of the head do I? I have made some assumptions that your armor was designed for some specific reasons that have nothing to do with actual battle.
    The cord has nothing to do with tying up the sleeves, it has everything to do with tradition.
    So, the tradition of using a tasuki to get the sleeves out of the way of your work.. has nothing to do with tying back the sleeves... but everything to do with tradition. I wonder how that tradition arose, then. If it was done to tie back the sleeves, then wouldn't tradition also dictate a gi with big sleeves, so they do need to be tied up? Or are they admitting that their gi is not traditional, but then the tasuki is, and they wear it because of tradition?
    Why would they choose a useless thing for traditional purposes when the rest of the uniform isn't traditional?

    Well, I guess if you want to claim to practice something traditional while cutting off ties to the actual tradition, wearing a traditional garment while ignoring the reasons for the tradition can make sense. Somehow.

    ---
    Sebastien L.

  7. #22
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    I'm working on reading through the thread, but did they say who was the sensei's teacher? Just wondering if anyone actually learnt some Shinkage-ryu of some sort and then left.



    Regards,
    - Alex Dale

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Dale
    I'm working on reading through the thread, but did they say who was the sensei's teacher? Just wondering if anyone actually learnt some Shinkage-ryu of some sort and then left.
    Absolutely not, in no case, ever. At least, I didn't see any names, and a number of students have made it a point that 1) you don't ask sensei these questions, and 2) sensei has detached himself from all the lineage. No reason is given, but the students are sure there are good ones. Just like they were sure they were doing koryu, without knowing what koryu is.

    I don't care what they claim, if they all admit that the art ends with sensei and there's nothing above him, then it's not koryu, unless they're studying with soke (and even then, soke has predecessors).

    I've had the feeling lately that many people really like the japanese swords and the japanese arts, and by god, they'll use the japanese terminology, and it doesn't matter if it's used wrongly. There's a guy at kendo-world who is looking for training partners. He says he's a real budoka, even if all he does is spar with bokken with friends in fields and in the woods (no kendo or anything). I want to point out to him that you can't really be a budoka if you're not studying budo, but what's the point. We all know where these conversations go .

    ---
    Sebastien L.

  9. #24
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    Well...here it goes.

    I'm a member of this dojo, and I will try to answer any questions you might have. But please try to keep it civil, I can assure you that we are not "a bunch of jerks."

    I am aware of various issues regarding legitimacy associated with our "style" and I myself have some things that I am not quite comfortable with, however I have been training under Sensei Kilgore for 3 years, so I know him quite well.

    I will see if I can get him to come on the board and answer questions, if I am unable to do so myself.
    -Matt Henseler

  10. #25
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    Mr. Henseler,



    Thank you very much for joining our discussion in a rationale manner. I'm sure we'll keep it civil.



    My questions are very basic and very easily answered. There is so much material at the Kendo World thread that I've lost most of it, but I'll remember what I can.


    One of the members at the KW discussion said something along the lines of "this style has been on US soil for over 100 years". That's quite a statement for someone that can't trace their own lineage back any further than their own sensei. Our question is very simple. What was the name of Mr. Kilgore's sensei? And his sensei? This goes on until we get to someone that has credible connections to legit Shinkage-ryu.


    Someone also said y'all removed the "Yagyu" or any other names to rid yourselves of ancestral ties. To us, that sounds like escaping our critical eye that is looking for your lineage. If you can't name anyone, we're left to our gut feeling that there is no lineage and someone maybe dabbled around a style(s) or read something in a book and decided to start teaching "Shinkage-ryu".


    Maybe more to come later.



    If you could get your sensei on here, that would make things easier.



    Regards,
    - Alex Dale

  11. #26
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    Mr. Dale,

    I understand and agree with you completley. However, I do not know my Mr. Kilgore's sensei's name. I have never asked directly, but a friend of mine (also a dojo member) did, and was not given an answer.

    I will try to get him (my sensei) on here, and there is a possibility he might give the name of his teacher, but it's unlikely.
    -Matt Henseler

  12. #27
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    Matt, you read as an intelligent, reasonable man. In my experience, unwillingness to answer legitimate students' questions is a bad sign and nearly always means that the instructor is hiding something- usually that he has had little or no formal training and usually has no teaching qualifications from the ryuha he alleges he trained in. I'm not saying this is the case with Mr Kilgore, what I am saying is that to legitimate koryu practitioners it looks suspect. If your instructor will not give you information of this nature I would strongly suggest that you seek another dojo.

    I have no axe to grind here. I am not even a koryu practitioner since Nakamura ryu is a gendai system. However, I've seen too many good people cheated and kept in the questionable school by the very qualities [such as loyalty and a real desire to learn] which make them good people. I wish you well and hope that my doubts are unfounded.
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

  13. #28
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    Summat stinks and it ain't my feet.

  14. #29
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    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by SLeclair
    The kendo-world thread about Chikara dojo is here. It's an interesting read.
    To save people time reading, the discussion begins with post 24.

    Saying it is an "interesting read" is an understatement, IMHO. ...
    Carolyn Hall


  15. #30
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    Does this system have the Sangaku and Kuka?
    Increase My Killing Power, Eh?
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