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Thread: Is this legitimate Shinkage?

  1. #76
    Yakibasama Guest

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    heh, wow, lots of authority here.

  2. #77
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    In all honesty George this thread is done.

    1.All original questions have been answered by Mr. Booth (thank You).
    There are no legitimate secondary issues that have arisen (name calling, sarcasm etc excluded on both sides).

    2. The school is what it is.....to those from classical backgrounds it is not Shinkage. To those that belong to the school especially those that have participated if you are happy great.

    3. The existance of #1 does not preclude the existance of #2 therefore it is time for this thread to end.

    just my 2 cents,
    H
    Howard Thiery

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    In all honesty George this thread is done.
    Spoil sport!
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakibasama
    Shinkageryu is not under copyrite. No trademarks have been issued. It is simply not an owned thing.
    It may not be subject to US law, but that does not mean it is not an owned thing. The very definition of koryu is that it is an owned thing. See this article for an explanation. If someone teaches koryu waza without permission of the owner (the soke) then they are by definition not teaching that ryu however well they perform the waza. However if they don't have the permission and support of the ryu, then it is unlikely that they are actually teaching those waza properly, but merely teaching stuff that bears some resemblance. In that case, calling it by the name of the ryu is simply fraud. The fact that US law doesn't provide for enforcement of this doesn't change the morals of the situation.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakibasama
    If he adheres to shinkage principals and can actually apply them (I'd be willing to bet he can) is that where Shinkage Ryu resides? If you rationalize a negative answer, my guess is that you have no clue and if you were to encounter the likes of Mr Booth or Mr Hensler, you lunch may well be eaten. I think they are pure.
    Train Hard
    What are the Shinkage Ryu principles of which you speak? How can you know what these are unless you've seen and experienced actual Shinkage Ryu? Such things are buried in the Sangaku, Kuka, Empi, etc and learned and understood within the context of Shinkage Ryu through diligent practice of these techniques. How they're transmitted when you've gotten rid of these and still call it Shinkage Ryu is a bit beyond me. But it seems that what's being taught there isn't Shinkage Ryu, so I consider my question asked and answered.
    Last edited by Chris deMonch; 12th July 2005 at 23:34.
    Increase My Killing Power, Eh?
    -Homer Simpson

  6. #81
    Yakibasama Guest

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    heh, ok...exactly what am i supposed to say here?
    My original point for ever comeing here to the ebudo forum was to point out exactly this. Red paint is red paint baby, ducks quack and fish swim. things are what they are. I have given this more time than I have. I will likly not bother you again for awhile. But, as always, I get the last parting shot because I am the one with the ability to walk away from the table here. You guys spend SO much time here it is obscene. what the hell do you do for a living anyways? so, as a seriouse practioiner myself, I have to point out that I myself am deeply suspiciouse of anyone that spends this much time talking about this stuff as oposed to doing it. I would HIGHLY recomend that any of you go to Chikara dojo sometime. I am willing to bet your hard assed attitudes would soften in the face of those that train hard. Bring your dogma, especially you locals, I am sure there will be lots of room for it there. Your attitudes are so blinding. You silly fools, you can't own knowing something! It gets out! Always. The inverse of that is simply that by knowing something it can never be taken away! Who are you to lay claim? And if you do lay claim, what are you willing to do to enforce it? My guess is not much. Chikara still operates, thier people still sweat, all despite what you say. They still do Shinkage Ryu and aparantly they can still fight.
    Most of them are very intelligent people, educated in the best places. They follow a path that is narrow and full of people like you. Stop judgeing them and pointing your damn finger and telling them what they aren't. I am sure they are closer to it than you are whatever the case. If the art was not what it clamed to be then it would surely manifest itself in a more profound manner, oh, like for instance, NOT WORKING for one.
    Besides, this is all a good indicator of your own comfort levels. You feel embattled and the extreme need to prove a point. A moot one at that. Ask yourself, what is it exactly that you get out of your art? You can't claim anything other than the touchy feely !!!!!!!! that almost all arts claim. So, what is the point of the attitude?
    That is a rhetorical question by the way, if you did not understand that then perhaps I should pose if in the form of the koan.
    "why question the edge of the cliff"

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    I've never questioned your competence, frankly without seeing you I've no way of judging that. It's the fraud that picks my !!!.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakibasama
    You guys spend SO much time here it is obscene. what the hell do you do for a living anyways? so, as a seriouse practioiner myself, I have to point out that I myself am deeply suspiciouse of anyone that spends this much time talking about this stuff as oposed to doing it. I would HIGHLY recomend that any of you go to Chikara dojo sometime. I am willing to bet your hard assed attitudes would soften in the face of those that train hard. Bring your dogma, especially you locals, I am sure there will be lots of room for it there. Your attitudes are so blinding. You silly fools, you can't own knowing something!
    You still haven't answered the question of your affiliation with the Chikara dojo. And in case you haven't noticed, many of the posters here are serious practioners of different martial art styles. Chris deMonch has been studying Yagyu Shinkage ryu for quite a while now, and he is very knowledgeable of this koryu. You, on the other hand, haven't really offered any extra information to this thread, and have resorted to empty threats and insults.

    So...where do you fit in?
    Jennifer Yabut

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    Quote Originally Posted by gendzwil
    It may not be subject to US law, but that does not mean it is not an owned thing. The very definition of koryu is that it is an owned thing. See this article for an explanation. If someone teaches koryu waza without permission of the owner (the soke) then they are by definition not teaching that ryu however well they perform the waza. However if they don't have the permission and support of the ryu, then it is unlikely that they are actually teaching those waza properly, but merely teaching stuff that bears some resemblance. In that case, calling it by the name of the ryu is simply fraud. The fact that US law doesn't provide for enforcement of this doesn't change the morals of the situation.
    To add a little to what Mr Gendzwil writes.... There has been and still is a severe language barrier and lack of computer skills that prevents Japanese people explaining their situation to the West. More to the point they are not aware of what is going on in the West regarding koryu. Also for some they could not give damn what some Westerner does with koryu.

    This is without doubt an advantage to Westerners who want to make claims and use names of well known ryu.

    But the gap is closing. I can assure people in the West that if this this barrier was not as big there would be something of a clampdown. They do tend to use people like me as a "madoguchi" as to what is going on out there. Its not the "Budo police" or anything. Westerners are people that have strong interest. Likewise Japanese people want to know what makes them tick and what they are up to out there.

    The fact of the matter is very old koryu do keep official records in safe places as to their authenticity. The thing is usually such ryu names are the intellectual copyright of the present headmaster/soke whatever.

    Personally and in the interests of the group I was running I would want to secure and make firm ongoing group and would not use the name of a well known ryu unless it was with permission.

    Its not about snobbery. Just a few basic principles. Some people might profess to be studying or teaching ”The ways of the samurai". But using names of a ryu they are not connected with is leaving one principle outside the door makes what they are doing to be a waste of time. If people come clean and have something decent to offer either in Genbudo or Kobudo, students will come. Ties or no ties, use the name of a ryu and its an iffy situation.

    I guess if it was old Japan someone would be coming to visit with some sharp pointy things to deal with it.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  10. #85
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    Okay, I'll post whatever I have to say here, and if Mr. Jackson doesn't respond, I'll drop him a PM, e-mail if he has one on there.


    I'll skip over the condescending attitude-filled remarks with a smile, and get right to what stuck out at me.


    They still do Shinkage Ryu and aparantly they can still fight.

    If it has no kata, it's no real Shinkage-ryu, first of all, at least not the Shinkage-ryu connected with Kamiizumi Ise no Kami Nobutsuna. Also, how do you know they can fight? Have these techinques and principles been applied to combat (shinken shobu)? How do you know that what you are practicing has any combat worth if you don't know the origins, sir?


    If the art was not what it clamed to be then it would surely manifest itself in a more profound manner, oh, like for instance, NOT WORKING for one.

    Again, how do we know that it works?



    You mentioned earlier how you bet that Mr. Booth and Mr. Henseler could take us by applying their "Shinkage Ryu principles". What principles are these? Where did they originate? Where have they been tested?



    To Mr. Booth and Mr. Henseler,


    I do not know your teacher, Mr. Kilgore, but he may very well be a great person and a sincere practitioner. But from the looks of it, there is no way of tracing your "roots", leaving any connection to REAL Shinkage-ryu a mystery. I'd urge you to find an established koryu school to train at, but I assume you're set in your ways. Maybe on your own time, after some of this has soaked in a bit, you'll think again.


    I wish you all the best.


    Regards,
    - Alex Dale

  11. #86

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    I second the opinion that it is time for this thread to end. I vaguely recall a lesson regarding the wisdom of picking the correct fight and a more recent one about how inhibiting the desire to win can be.

    Nothing further of value is being said. All that remains is a steadily degenerating sequence of attempts to gain the last word. Sadly, human nature being what it is I fear that this thread will continue to flail around until a moderator locks it.

    Stick a fork in it, it's done.
    ---------
    Dave Booth
    St Paul, MN

  12. #87
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    Locking thread as requested by multiple members.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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