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Thread: "Aikido is not a martial art"

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Basher
    1) Really? Why not?
    The classical Japanese koryu, with their precise lineages, their legal ownership of their teachings vs the various passed-down, often shared, mishmash that is the okinawan traditions? Read Harry's book A Precise History, and then maybe take it up with him. It's a folk tradition, with many rather messy influences from china, possibly the boegies, many other sailors and travellers, etc. Simple as that.

    Aikido and Judo are descended from the koryu. One can trace the origins of aikido and judo back to specific koryu arts. Not so with karate. Mishmash. Thus, a folk art.

    Not saying it isn't martial, but it's not a classical Japanese art, despite the influences from Japanese traders and exiles. Some of it may have even formed as a reaction to the koryu. Who knows?
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    Karate is martial, yes. But as far as arts go, it's not a classical art. It is a folk art.
    Yes. I've heard vague rumblings about the art evolving in conjunction with Okinawan dance. Would like to read more about that, actually.
    Don J. Modesto
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    http://theaikidodojo.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saburo
    Aikido was developed by a Japanese man who believed himself to be an ethereal dragon with a beard.

    The question of whether it's a martial art or not seems trivial by comparison.
    LOL.

    Well put.
    Don J. Modesto
    Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
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    http://theaikidodojo.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by don
    Yes. I've heard vague rumblings about the art evolving in conjunction with Okinawan dance. Would like to read more about that, actually.
    Okinawan dance is has elements in it of the okinawan kata. Most modern okinawan dancers don't really know much about why, but, if people will be tolerant, I'll venture a guess.

    One of the other places that you can find some of the kata movements are, for instance, temple guardian statues in India. They are often posed in a movement that appears in tekki and several other kata. These movements are part of Hindu culture, and they would have all known them, way back when.
    Similarly, in Okinawa, karate was a part of the island's culture, even though it wasn't really called karate so much back then. The movements weren't really secret, even though the bunkai were usually reserved for those "inside the gate." There were demonstrations and such throughout the islands. These movements may well have been incorporated into the dances because they simply were part of the repertoire of movements known on the island. It's like ballet. We expect a certain quality and type of movement out of ballet dancers, and if we're cultured enough, can appreciate and enjoy it because it's part of our culture. The Okinawans had the Te, and southern chinese type of movement in their culture, and I'm not surprised that it got into the dances.
    Some of the gestures in the kata may also have functioned similarly to the gestures of the Indian temple gardens, they may have had a ritual function in the ceremonies of funerals, propitiation of the spirits, etc. So naturally, they were in the consciousness of the islanders, and found their way into the kata and the dance.


    There, I've guessed, now tell me more about this dragon with a beard thingie?
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    1) The classical Japanese koryu, with their precise lineages, their legal ownership of their teachings vs
    2) the various passed-down, often shared, mishmash that is the okinawan traditions? Read Harry's book A Precise History, and then maybe take it up with him. It's a folk tradition, with many rather messy influences from china, possibly the boegies, many other sailors and travellers, etc. Simple as that.
    1) Japanese tend to be very anal about records and dates so this is no surprise to me....where as Okinawan's had 90% of their island blown up and lost a great deal of cultural information. Accidental cultural genocide???
    2) Mish mash? Hmmm considering that most karate styles can trace their roots back to the 1600~1700s is not too bad….I mean considering that more than a few koryu schools started after that time.



    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    1) Okinawan dance is has elements in it of the okinawan kata. Most modern okinawan dancers don't really know much about why, but, if people will be tolerant, I'll venture a guess. The movements weren't really secret, even though the bunkai were usually reserved for those "inside the gate." There were demonstrations and such throughout the islands. These movements may well have been incorporated into the dances because they simply were part of the repertoire of movements known on the island. It's like ballet. We expect a certain quality and type of movement out of ballet dancers, and if we're cultured enough, can appreciate and enjoy it because it's part of our culture. The Okinawans had the Te, and southern chinese type of movement in their culture, and I'm not surprised that it got into the dances.
    1) This is not correct. Many dancers in Okinawa know quite a bit about the martial/historical aspects of their art…..but you having been to Okinawa numerous times would know all about this right…...I mean based on the research you have conducted in country with people that actually train in that art.
    Too bad you never met a man named Uehara Seikichi….he was a great student of Okinawan dance as well as Te and also studied Aikido for a bit…but you probably would have told him to go read somebody’s book.....

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    Given the massive amount of martial cross-pollination that went on, both from overseas and within the island chain itself, I think that mishmash would be the word. Also, without the records, word-of-mouth isn't all that reliable. Fact becomes memory becomes legend becomes myth. Japanese regulated everything, and had records of it all, which is why the occasional "samurai" that pops up here gets such an interesting reception. Okinawans didn't, and if they did, they lost the records. Also, the martial arts weren't as regulated there. The concept of martial art as regulated tool of the state, which is VERY Japanese, didn't really show up in Okinawa. Which means that many more people learned them. There was also much sharing between styles, especially around the relative boonies, as well as many trips to China for more. Add in the sailors from all over the East who visited Okinawa, and you have a great number of influences!
    In Japan, the styles were kept relatively pure, since you had to crawl over broken glass and swear blood oaths, among other unpleasant ways to keep the ryu secret. Nowadays, of course, the ryu-ha are dying out, so there are some people here on e-budo who train in two or maybe more, just to keep the ryu alive. How they keep them separate I don't know, but they swear that they do it!

    Okinawan Te, the chinese styles that they adapted to it, etc, are the roots of a folk art. Like all folk arts, it's based upon legend, culture, fact, myth, and a great variety of different roots. Heck, the kata themselves aren't all that old in present form.

    You may have met more edumacated dancers than I, but the ones I've met and asked where they got the moves went, what? Martial arts? It's dance! What are you talking about? And yet there the moves were, right out of the kata...

    I'd have trained with him, listened to him, and read his book, had he bothered to write one! And if not, I'd have bloody well taken notes and passed them along, just to increase the number of facts in the world.
    Last edited by Trevor Johnson; 26th July 2005 at 06:54.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    1) Given the massive amount of martial cross-pollination that went on, both from overseas and within the island chain itself, I think that mishmash would be the word.
    2) Japanese regulated everything, and had records of it all
    3) Okinawans didn't. Also, the martial arts weren't as regulated there. The concept of martial art as regulated tool of the state, which is VERY Japanese, didn't really show up in okinawa. Which means that many more people learned them. There was also much sharing between styles, especially around the relative boonies, as well as many trips to China.
    4) You may have met more edumacated dancers than I, but the ones I've met and asked where they got the moves went, what? Martial arts? It's dance! What are you talking about? And yet there the moves were, right out of the kata...

    I'd have trained with him, and read his book, had he bothered to write one!
    1) And Japanese koryu arts NEVER did that….
    2) Did they now…based on your extensive research on the subject right??
    3) Didn’t they? Or perhaps it was blown up in WWII…..There are some records around that have very distinct descriptions of class structure, who could wear what type and color of clothing and so on. You REALLY need to do more research on this subject.
    4) You have met some Okinawan dancers have ya?? Who?
    Perhaps you would like to discuss the topic of Okainwa dance as it relates to Karate with someone say like Morio Higaona, or maybe some others in Okinawa….say Nagamine Shoshin’s son……shall I go on?

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    You may go on, and I would love to.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    You may go on, and I would love to.

    So who are these legends in Okinawan dance you got such great info from?
    Drop a name or two....

    Here is an interesting read for ya.

    http://seinenkai.com/articles/sanzinsoo/dancing.html

    Dancing Old Man

    by Kiyohiko Higa

    Translated by Sanzinsoo

    Remarks: This is a part of the article "Sometimes I play karate like Okinawan dance 'Hamachidori': Karate and Okinawan dance is the same." written by Mr. Kiyohiko Higa, a teacher of Naha Technical High School. The article appeared in the monthly magazine "Aoi Umi" February 1978 issue (No.70) published by Aoi Umi Shuppansha (page 118).


    Talking of the relation between karate and Okinawan dance, it reminds me of an interesting story which I heard from my father, Seitoku Higa.

    A long time ago, there was a karateka whose name was Machaa Buntoku or Kinjo Matsu in Itoman village, Okinawa. He was born in 1867. People said that he had been practicing karate in Fuzhou city, Fujian province, China and mastered the fighting arts in depth.

    Hearing about Machaa Buntoku, Miyagi Sensei, the founder of Gojuryu, visited him together with Sensei's disciples, Jin-an Shinzato and Seiko Higa. Miyagi Sensei asked him to show them his best Kata that he mastered in China. Then Machaa Buntoku put on Hachimaki (=headband) and performed a strange dance in front of them. He danced and danced. Seeing his strange dance, Seiko Higa thought this old man must be crazy or mad because of his old age. Jin-an Shinzato who was yet young at that time lost his temper to see his dance and told him "OK. Dance is enough! Show me your fighting technique! I will be your opponent." Shinzato delivered a karate blow at him, but Shinzato was thrown down by the dancing old man and hurt his back. He lost face. Everyone there felt awkward about it, so they bowed to the old man and went home. On the way home no one spoke.

    This anecdote was told to my father by Master Seiko Higa. For the dancing old man, he just showed them his best Kata, however, they had never supposed that his dancing was his best fighting technique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    There, I've guessed, now tell me more about this dragon with a beard thingie?
    http://www.aikiwest.com/cosmology.htm

    It's the bottom third of the page. There was also a good explanation at www.kannagara.org but I can't find it anymore.
    Saburo Kitazono

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Maxwell
    • Tenjin Shinyo ryu- jujutsu (1901)
    • Yagyu Shingan ryu under Masakatsu Nakai (between 1903 and 1908) -
    taijutsu (jujutsu), kenjutsu, bojutsu, naginatajutsu, iaijutsu
    • Kito ryu Jujitsu under Tokusaburo Tozawa-ALSO THE STYLE WERE KANO
    WAS TO HAVE STUDIED BEFORE CREATION OF JUDO

    A good article can be found: http://www.aikidoonline.com/
    under history

    Hope this helps,
    Tony Maxwell
    Again, what *specific* techniques in aikido (empty hand) are not from Daito ryu, and what arts are they from?

    Specifics please. To the best of my knowledge, none of the arts you mentioned have any serious contribution to the empty hand techniques of aikido. I'd welcome evidence to the contrary, but I haven't seen it yet. There are numerous discussions of this on www.aikidojounal.com, here, and other places.

    Best,
    Ron

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Tisdale
    Again, what *specific* techniques in aikido (empty hand) are not from Daito ryu, and what arts are they from?

    Specifics please. To the best of my knowledge, none of the arts you mentioned have any serious contribution to the empty hand techniques of aikido. I'd welcome evidence to the contrary, but I haven't seen it yet. There are numerous discussions of this on www.aikidojounal.com, here, and other places.

    Best,
    Ron
    Ron,
    There seems to be a problem with the link you have given me, but I think I understand your question.

    Specific techniques of taijitsu have existed for hundreds of years, maybe thousands of years. There are two difficulties in tracing origin of a technique;

    One of the difficulties in tracing the origin of each techniques is the change in nomemclature over the years-as discussed in the link below.

    Second, the same technique exists in other martial arts. For instance the technique called "Sankyo" in Aikido is "Send the Devil to Heaven" in Shaloin Chi Na.

    You can see that it would be difficult to itemize each tecnique specifically-what a great Phd project though.

    Here is a helpfull link to some comparisons of Diato Ryu and Aikido:
    http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3943

    I hope this is helpfull,

    Tony Maxwell

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    Default Okinawan Karate and Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    Okinawan dance is has elements in it of the okinawan kata. Most modern okinawan dancers don't really know much about why, but, if people will be tolerant, I'll venture a guess.
    I have been under the impression that, like Capoeira, the fighting techniqus of Okinawan karate were hidden in and transmitted through dance to prevent the rulers (Japaneses samurai) from realizing that the natives were training to fight.

    There, I've guessed, now tell me more about this dragon with a beard thingie?
    There is one sumi-e painting of Ueshiba as a flying dragon that looks like what it must have felt like to be on the mat with him. Very scary.

    The reason for this is that Ueshiba sensei's zodiac sign was the dragon and he seemed fully to express those attributes in his character.

    Mochizuki sensei, who trained a long time with OSensei, had a driftwood "dragon head" in his kamiza to represent OSensei. He put golden christmas tree ornaments in it for eyeballs and it looked alive. It had horns and looked pretty scary. On one side of the kamiza, he had a photo of Kano and on the other, a photo of Osensei. But he had a symbol of OSensei, the dragon, "in" the kamiza, so that says a lot.
    David Orange, Jr.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    "That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
    Lao Tzu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Maxwell
    Specific techniques of taijitsu have existed for hundreds of years, maybe thousands of years. There are two difficulties in tracing origin of a technique;

    One of the difficulties in tracing the origin of each techniques is the change in nomemclature over the years-as discussed in the link below.

    Second, the same technique exists in other martial arts. For instance the technique called "Sankyo" in Aikido is "Send the Devil to Heaven" in Shaloin Chi Na.

    You can see that it would be difficult to itemize each tecnique specifically-what a great Phd project though.

    Here is a helpfull link to some comparisons of Diato Ryu and Aikido:
    http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3943

    I hope this is helpfull,

    Tony Maxwell
    Actually, its not that hard...every technique in the syllibus of aikido can pretty much be traced right back to Daito ryu. The nomenclature is there and clear to see. What was taught to the students (hidden mokuroku of Daito ryu) was posted on the wall of the kobukan dojo. The original students have clearly written about what they learned. It was Daito ryu...not something else. www.aikidojournal.com is the correct link. Stanley Pranin's website. Check out any of his books. For years there was speculation about where aikido came from...the speculation is pretty much over.

    I posted in the thread you linked...

    Best,
    Ron

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Tisdale
    every technique in the syllibus of aikido can pretty much be traced right back to Daito ryu...The original students have clearly written about what they learned. It was Daito ryu...not something else.
    Mochizuki Minoru sensei's menkyo kaiden from Morihei Ueshiba was in daito ryu aikijujutsu. I have always been told that only two people ever received the actual menkyo kaiden from Ueshiba and that would be Mochizuki and Tomiki Kenji. And I would think that Tomiki sensei's menkyo was also in daito ryu.

    However, I've recently been researching daito ryu and from tapes by Kondo Katsuyuki and others, I'm amazed by how much straight-line technique there is in daito ryu. I always assumed it would be full of flowing circular tai sabaki, but most of what I saw was straight-line application. The circles were in the hands.

    Now, B.K. Frantzis speculated in "The Power of Internal Martial Arts" that OSensei was exposed to baguazhang in Mongolia, when he was detained there with Deguchi Wanisaburo (also called Onisaburo).

    I thought there might be some truth to that, but when I saw the Aiki News (or Aikido Journal) tapes, I realized that there is a lot more circular footwork in aikido than in daito ryu. Of course, I didn't see everything, but I was struck by the straight-line nature of a lot of the daito ryu and it seemed suddenly much more likely that bagua would be the source of that.

    Do you suppose Frantzis is correct, that there is bagua influence in the transition from straight-line daito ryu to circular aikido?

    Best wishes.
    David Orange, Jr.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    "That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
    Lao Tzu

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