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Thread: MJER Curriculum

  1. #61
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    Pasi directed me back to this thread a while ago, but it's only now that I got the time to post here.

    Regarding the three sets of waza mentioned above, they are mentioned with short descriptions/explanations in one of the books by Kyo Ichisuke. The book is reviewed here: http://ejmas.com/tin/2006tin/tinart_...gman_0406.html

    If anyone would like to translate the descriptions, I'd be happy to send you this part of the text.
    Andrei Arefiev

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  2. #62
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    My Japanese aint that great but I will try and translate it.
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Wylie
    My Japanese aint that great but I will try and translate it.
    Here is the brief overall explanation that he gives. I hope it shows allright:

     「外物之大事」のうち、現在の奥伝・奥居合の太刀名義に見ることができないのは、「遂懸切」「雷電」「霞」の三つであるが、「遂懸切」は「外物之大事」「上意之大事」が統合されている時期の伝書には存在しており 、現在夢想神伝流の一部に伝承される「追掛斬」と同様であろう。「雷電」「霞」はすでに述べたとおりである。
     「上意之大事」のうち、伝承されていないと思われるのは「風返」「手之内」「輪之内」「十文字」の四つである。残念ながら、似たような太刀名義も存在しない。
     一方、夢想神伝流に伝承されている奥伝・奥居合のなかで、長谷川英信流の「外物之大事」「上意之大事」に見ることができないのは「信夫」「袖摺返」「両士引連」「請流」の四つである。「信夫」は「夜之太刀」、「 袖摺返」は「賢之事」、「請流」は「弛抜」という太刀名義で後期の伝書に見ることができ、「両士引連」も共に存在している。
     「請流」は大江正路の創始によるものであるとする説があるが、それよりも先に存在していたため、おそらくは若干の工夫を加えたものだと推測される。
     残る「極意之大事」は、心法的技法であるため、口伝される場合が多かったようであり、現在ではやや判然とはしないが、伝書類・口伝等から、そのおおよそは知ることができる。

    He also lists the Gaibutsu-no daiji and Joi-no daiji, and gives an annotated list of Gokui-no daiji. If anyone is interested, it is available here (it's a Unicode text file, not much bigger than the abstract above, which it also includes): http://www.eishinkai.ru/forums/kyo.txt
    Andrei Arefiev

    -Moscow Eishinkai Dojo-
    www.eishinkai.ru

  4. #64
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    I just noticed a comment about the amount of body turn in Shigeki sensei's mae. Shimomura ha was his main 'style' of MJER (he awarded Iwata sensei his menkyo kaiden in shimomura ha rather than tanimura ha MJER). This strong body turn is one of the distinctive features. If you watch the video closely you can also see the saya is inverted during nukitsuke, and is not put back until noto. There are some interesting stylistic differences between the two ha I was shown some years ago now, which I practise as a sort of kae waza to keep them in my mind as it were...
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

  5. #65
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    I am reviving this thread for a number of reasons. First, I think it is one of the most interesting, thought-provoking discussions on MJER on the internet. I hope its revival gives many of us a good second read through and a first for those who haven't been around so long. Second, I would like to address two different points that were brought up throughout this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Hartman View Post
    ...

    9. Itabashi Ryu Bojutsu, 5 forms bo vs. bo, 8 forms sword vs. bo

    ...

    In any case, since this curriculum was put together by a headmaster of the Shimomura-ha, I don't know how it was/is viewed by adherents of the Tanimura-ha. However, Oe S. was trained in both lines of the school, which co-existed side-by-side in Tosa, so I presume that all practitioners were familiar with it. In any case, from what I know at the present time, it would appear that the yawara, bojutsu, jojutsu, and torinawa parts of the curriculum are either a) lost, b) not commonly practiced today, or c) are advanced parts of the curriculum known to only a few advanced practitioners.
    Itabashi Ryu Bojutsu was known and practiced by at least one MJER Kongen no Maki holder as recently as one generation ago (20th generation). It has not, as far as I can determine, been passed to the current generation in its entirety.

    While this doesn't answer much about the 12th through 16th generations of the Tanimura-ha, it does seem to imply that Oe sensei saw fit to pass on Itabashi Ryu (regardless of its source) along with his renamed and reorganized MJER. This begs the question, however, as to why the other arts were lost and when.

    Quote Originally Posted by hyaku View Post
    Iwata sensei has two Kongen no Makki handed down from two of Oe Sensei's direct students. It seems that the Kongen no Maki awarded to Oe Sensei's direct students are worded differently. But of course without seeing and translating copies no one will ever be able to compare them.
    Yamakoshi Masaki, in his book Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu: The Iai Forms and Oral Traditions of the Yamauchi Branch, offers one explanation for the discrepancies in the wording of the Kongen no Maki.

    He states, on page 5:

    There used to be some difference in content and writing style between the certificates issued from teacher to pupil among fellow retainers of the Yamauchi family, and those presented by a retainer to a person of higher rank. The Yamauchi branch still preserves the latter. But the reason is evidently to protect the traditional writing style and not the feudal doctrine behind it.
    So we have a theory for both the original reasons for discrepancies as well as to why this was continued past the Meiji Restoration.

    In addition, on page 4, the following example is given:

    When looking at the picture mentioned above [Kongen no Maki presented to Yamauchi Toyotake], one may notice that Yamauchi Toyotake's name is written with much bigger characters than Oe Masamichi's. The difference in size is probably due to Oe Masamichi's respect towards Toyotake, being the grandson of Yamauchi Yodo (Toyoshige), and his pride of having served the latter as a Tosa samurai during the last days of the Tokugawa Shogunate.
    There is also mention that Yamauchi was not taught kendo because by Oe because it would have involved striking a lord.

    While this is biased information, coming from inside the Yamauchi-ha with respect to Yamauchi-ha documentation and history, it is likely the most evidence we will ever get until, as Colin mentioned in his quote reprinted above, two different copies are translated and compared.

    Sincerely,
    -Eric
    無雙直傳英信流・日本古武道居合研究会 - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu ・ Nihon Kobudo Iai Kenkyukai
    東京蘆洲会 - Tokyo Roshukai

  6. #66
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    I just saw that this thread had been brought back from the dead, so I would like to mention that I made a mistake upthread: I said I had a video of Ikeda Sensei doing iai; this was a mistake. The video I have is of Iwata Sensei.
    Earl Hartman

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    Dear Folks:

    I am not sure how folks might feel about this but I share it as a kind of contribution to the discussion from the other side of the Eastern Sea.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYREBgIMDSI

    CHOSON SEBUP is a very old set of sword movements originally performed with a To, or single-handed sabre. With the influence of Japanese sword, most old forms such as this and BON KUK GUM BUP have been revised to be executed using the SSANG SOO DO (lit: "two-handed sabre") not altogether different from the Japanese katana.

    In Korean KUM-BUP (lit: "sword method") these movements are supported by mastery of the form first and then by validation by cutting targets. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere View Post
    Dear Folks:

    I am not sure how folks might feel about this but I share it as a kind of contribution to the discussion from the other side of the Eastern Sea.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYREBgIMDSI

    CHOSON SEBUP is a very old set of sword movements originally performed with a To, or single-handed sabre. With the influence of Japanese sword, most old forms such as this and BON KUK GUM BUP have been revised to be executed using the SSANG SOO DO (lit: "two-handed sabre") not altogether different from the Japanese katana.

    In Korean KUM-BUP (lit: "sword method") these movements are supported by mastery of the form first and then by validation by cutting targets. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Very nice outfit! Thats an officers combat-armour isn't it?
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

  9. #69
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    Yes. In this particular case the authenticity is probably a bit more reliable (circa 14th or early 15th century). My understanding is that the person performing the swordwork is also an actor in Korean films and is considered quite a stickler for historic detail. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  10. #70
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    Eric,
    I have seen two of the scrolls Iwata s. has issued to his students, Terao and Morinaka senseis... They are also different in content. Morinaka s' is a lot longer and contains more waza,(Morinaka s. has full sets of TUNK, Terao s has only Oe s' 7 kata) although both detail the lineage of the ryu exactly. Signatures and dates were in the same format, with names and stamps as per you would expect. It is rumoured that others have them but not sure who, although I can guess... maybe a few drinks will get you a sight of one without travelling too far??!!??
    A side note on 'earning' them was that it would take a japanese guy about 12 years to hit menkyo status. I suppose we dont have a chance being westerners!

    One of my students is in Japan at the moment so I have asked her to pin on the map where all the previous sensei lived. Obviously a lot will be in the Kochi area, but what I am hoping to determine is the opening up of the school to 'outsiders' and how it spreads from there to us. I think it will be an interesting exercise, as it may be the final link in how it got to the UK, USA etc...
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chidokan View Post
    Eric,
    I have seen two of the scrolls Iwata s. has issued to his students, Terao and Morinaka senseis... They are also different in content. Morinaka s' is a lot longer and contains more waza,(Morinaka s. has full sets of TUNK, Terao s has only Oe s' 7 kata) although both detail the lineage of the ryu exactly. Signatures and dates were in the same format, with names and stamps as per you would expect. It is rumoured that others have them but not sure who, although I can guess... maybe a few drinks will get you a sight of one without travelling too far??!!??
    A side note on 'earning' them was that it would take a japanese guy about 12 years to hit menkyo status. I suppose we dont have a chance being westerners!

    One of my students is in Japan at the moment so I have asked her to pin on the map where all the previous sensei lived. Obviously a lot will be in the Kochi area, but what I am hoping to determine is the opening up of the school to 'outsiders' and how it spreads from there to us. I think it will be an interesting exercise, as it may be the final link in how it got to the UK, USA etc...
    Mr. Hamilton

    I your post in refernce to the different densho has sparked a question. It is my understanding the Iwata earned densho in Shinmomura ha and Tanamura ha. You said that Morinaka's mokuroku contained more waza than Terao's. You specifically mentioned the Tachi Uchi no Kurai (太刀打之位)being listed, however do you remember if (位之取り)Kurai Tori or (詰之位) Tsume no kurai are listed? Is it possible that Morinaka earned Shinmomura ha densho?. As these are sets of kata listed in Shinmomura ha's (MSR's) mokuroku and not in MJER's (so I've been told). It is my understanding that these kata are practiced as kaewaza in MJER and are therefor not listen in the mokuroku. It is also my understanding that when a individual earns Menkyo (Kogen no Maki) in Shinmomura ha the also earn other items (which I won't name online). I'm also currious as to if, MJER Kogen no Maki recipients recieve the same objects.

    regards
    Last edited by bushikan; 30th November 2007 at 03:26. Reason: Spelling mistake
    Jeffrey Karinja

  12. #72
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    I know Morinaka sensei has tsume ai no kurai as I have seen him do the set! It was pure luck I saw them both within a few days about 8 years ago, as I visited both seperately and was shown them as part of a 'history lesson' when we were discussing lineage etc. You will have to forgive my ignorance on what was on what as both scrolls were only out for a minute or so!

    I would be very surprised if the paired work was not included in both ha....there was only one dojo, and everyone practised together, so one isnt going to be hidden from the other! I can certainly ask when I go over in April, as I find it a relevant question, but I feel I will just get a strange look! It has not come up in previous discussions as a 'single ha' method, especially as I was quite determined last time in making sure the Shimomura ha information I had was correct. Iwata s. only teaches us Tanimura ha as our regular instructional methods to make sure we dont mix the ideas etc up. This is quite important to him, so a few days for me on just Shimomura was a bonus.

    He also makes it clear that although MSR has its roots in Shimomura, the 'modern' MSR has changed considerably since its conception, a lot of this being done by the founder himself anyway as he added other influences from his experiences and as his iai developed. This can be seen from watching old footage and the last videos taken before his death.
    Also as far as I am aware, no-one actually practises Shimomura ha as their 'mainstream' practise, (possibly using the Tanimura ha as the kae waza), so it is likely in future that MSR will change/develop further away from the root methods, unless MSR students decide to focus on this. They need to be quick, most sensei with shimomura ha kongen are all above 80!

    Gift giving is usual in Japan, as I guess most of us know, so receiving something when you qualify for kongen makes sense... think of it as a birthday present, so it will be something a little more special than the usual gift exchange....I do something similar for my senior students when they leave university and leave my dojo as a thankyou for their hard work.
    Last edited by Chidokan; 1st December 2007 at 14:13. Reason: add lines on presents...
    Tim Hamilton

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  13. #73
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    Thank you for your reply,

    Quote Originally Posted by Chidokan View Post
    I would be very surprised if the paired work was not included in both ha....there was only one dojo, and everyone practised together, so one isnt going to be hidden from the other! I can certainly ask when I go over in April, as I find it a relevant question, but I feel I will just get a strange look!
    I'm sorry this is my mistake in wording. What I meant was that the Kata are listed differently in the Mokuroku not that the techniques were somehow hidden from the other. It is my understanding that the ryu-ha's mokuroku is something like this:
    Tanamura ha
    Tachi Uchi no Kurai(Kata)
    Tsumeai no Kurai
    Daishozume
    Daishotachizume
    Daikendori
    Shinmomura ha
    Tachi Uchi no Kurai
    Tsumeai no Kurai
    Kurai Tori
    Daishozume
    DaishoTachisume
    Tsume no Kurai
    Daikendori

    This is not to say that Shinmomura ha has more kata its just that MJER practices the kata encompassed in Kurai Tori and Tsume no Kurai as kaewaza to the katas to which they relate to, rather than seperately as MSR does (though more than probally my source material is wrong). Thank you for pursuing that question upon your return to Japan in April.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chidokan View Post
    Also as far as I am aware, no-one actually practises Shimomura ha as their 'mainstream' practise, (possibly using the Tanimura ha as the kae waza), so it is likely in future that MSR will change/develop further away from the root methods, unless MSR students decide to focus on this. They need to be quick, most sensei with shimomura ha kongen are all above 80!
    Nakayama Zendo sensei, Saeki Soichiro sensei, and Ogawa Sensei all created 剣聖中山博道先生伝承武術保存会(The Society to Perserve the Teachings of Nakayama Hakudo Sensei) in 1966. This is reconised by the NKK(Nihon Kobudo Kyokai) and NKSK (Nihon Kobudo Shinkyokai), and was heavly supported by Nakayama Zendo Sensei prior to his death however, however there are other preservation societies which preserve the methods of thier teachers, for example: the Haga dojo preserves Haga Junichi's methods, Danzaki's preserves his, the Sanshinkai preserves Mitsuzuka's, and so forth..... Everyone tries regardless of how much of the curriculum they now teach or how they teach it, but politics have a bad tendoncy to destroy even the best of intentions or ideals.

    Again thank you for the information you provided
    Jeffrey Karinja

  14. #74
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    Sorry, didnt get that much detail, although I will find out...

    I know of the Nakayama society and have also met a few of the japanese members at one of Iwata s' seminars. It's one of the reasons we got the shimomura 'lecture' as he shouted at them to improve their techniques! Not just us lowly godans who got it in the neck, for a change the hachidans got blasted for teaching too much and not practising enough! Nice to know no matter how good you get, there is always someone about to tell you to work harder, who is better than you and can back it up with info!!!
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

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