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Thread: Tameshigiri with the Kama

  1. #16
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    Default Senso = War

    The Japanese word for war is senso
    Yours in budo.

  2. #17
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    My late teacher once picked up my large Shureido kama and laughed saying "oh, war kama"!

    Said purely to make fun of how heavy they were (to him)...lol.

    John R. Stebbins
    Seattle Kobukan
    Matsumura Kenpo
    seakobukan@matsumurakenpo.org
    http://www.matsumurakenpo.org

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott
    FWIW, I agree with your point about tameshigiri. If a pair of kama that are intended to be adapted as weapons can't cut withstand cutting medium to light bamboo or tatami, how could it withstand blocking, hooking and pulling, or cutting?
    My opinion (note I lack the massive amounts of experience that everyone else around here seems to have) is that the human body is not medium bamboo or tatami. Unlike Japanese katana, the kama are merely adaptations to weapons rather than being real weapons, so of course they won't stand up to repeated stress of that nature.

    As far as blocking, hooking, pulling and cutting, the rather small nature of kama dictates that anything you do with them to block can't be a direct meeting of force (something we all probably agree with on empty hand and not being the "ideal" for weapons usage either). Therefore techniques with the blade obviously rely upon the sharpness of that blade. You probably won't be lopping off heads with kama, but you can do incredible damage to soft tissue areas or vulnerable spots along joints or simply fingers. As accidents in dojo across the world demonstrate, it doesn't take much to seriously hurt yourself with kama even when you aren't even trying to. They won't last long if you "hack" with them or repeated use against targets requiring a strong blade (like tatami), but they will work quite well against the human body at least once.

    Note: I haven't ever tried cutting bamboo or tatami with regular kama (or super deluxe premium forged killer kombat kama for that matter), so I'm assuming like everyone else they wouldn't last with repeated usage or maybe not even the first time (I simply don't know)?
    -John Oberle-
    Personal martial arts site:http://bujutsublogger.blogspot.com/

  4. #19
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    Hello,

    Fair enough. People get injured with training weapons of all types all the time. Many of the commercial kama being sold out there probably are excellent for training.

    FWIW, tatami was determined long ago to be the consistency of flesh, and bamboo the consistency of bone. That is why they are used as cutting mediums in Japanese arts. I don't know anything about Okinawan weapons, but I have seen them demonstrated, and have noted that w/ kama, cutting/controlling the neck or other parts of the body or opponents' weapon are some of the most exploited assets of the kama. My point about cutting was two fold. One, that the techniques that were formulated to be used for kama should be realistic, meaning if you are going to apply force against the edge side of the blade, causing stress at the connection between the blade and haft, the weapon should not fail. If cutting people in half is not an intended function of the kama, then yes, it shouldn't be expected to withstand similar testing.

    The second thing is that in the weapon arts I have knowledge/experience in, attacking the opponent's weapon is not an uncommon tactic. In weapons that have blade/handle joints (spear, naginata, etc.) attacking this connection is one of the best areas to attack, since this is often the weakest part of the weapon. Thus, these areas ("tachiuchi") are usually reinforced in hopes of withstanding cutting force and attacks.

    I don't know the kata in Okinawan weapons, but I would imagine a well placed blow from nuchaku or bo would likely break the joints of typical modern kama without a problem. If these types of kama really aren't expected to be very strong, then disregard my comments. But if they are, then I suspect most modern kama would fail easily.

    FWIW,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  5. #20
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    Nathan Scott,

    Good info. My opinion is that kama were simply not meant to be carried onto the battlefield and of use only as a contingency. Therefore, you are very correct in stating most all kama out there would tend to break easily when hit along the joint with something else. Their usual enemy ended up being vegetation, anyway. I've always envisioned and practiced blocks away from the joint area unless I was specifically engaged in moving the weapon away rather than receiving force directly.

    As far as the whole tatami thing goes, I think where I was trying to go with that is, as you stated, the point was not to cut people in half. Simply put, a large rolled tatami seems to be a heck of a lot to cut through with kama. I would imagine any real "deep cuts" with the kama would be to very soft tissue areas (belly and whatnot) or thin areas (throat, fingers, etc.). Cuts in other targets such as the arm perhaps would be satisfactory even if they didn't cut clear to and through the bone.

    To sum it all up, it's simply a matter of degree. Since it wasn't primarily a weapon, it wouldn't be able to cause as much damage as a well-constructed weapon. At the same time, it could cause "enough damage" to make it worthwhile.

    Nice site, by the way.
    -John Oberle-
    Personal martial arts site:http://bujutsublogger.blogspot.com/

  6. #21
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    Hello,

    if the Nichogama was not for fight on a battlefield, or just as the last contingency, so what do say about Kusarigama? This was made for fighting?
    So was it strong enough for cuting to a body?

    Thomas Gall

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgall
    Hello,

    if the Nichogama was not for fight on a battlefield, or just as the last contingency, so what do say about Kusarigama? This was made for fighting?
    So was it strong enough for cuting to a body?

    Thomas Gall
    One thing to look at is which kusarigama. I've seen the kusarigama used by two different ryuha, one demo by Meik Skoss and one by Ellis Amdur, and they're differently shaped and used differently. One has a straight, double-edged blade and a handguard just under the blade, and is used for stabs, throat cuts, suppressing the arms, etc, once the chain has caught the blade or the person. The chain is longer and used for catching arms and swords. The other I didn't see as much of, but the chain was shorter and used more for swinging, had a curved blade, and the kata ended with tying up the opponent with the chain and going for the throat, and then a spectacular sweep on the end to avoid having 4 techniques in the kata. (Which is inauspicious to the Japanese. 4 techniques in the kata, 4 of the same technique in a row with no variation in between, either is bad. ) Neither one really went for a stab to the body, it was more joints and throat, though I should point out that the koryu tend to train as if you are wearing armor, so striking the body's often a nono anyway.
    Amdur's comment on the kusarigama is that it is not a battle field weapon, due to the flailing. He's had the experience of sparring with a flail vs a bokken, and having a lot of fun until the chain got caught in a bush. Revenge time for the bokken! His comment was that kusarigama were more of an experiment during peacetime.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    One thing to look at is which kusarigama. I've seen the kusarigama used by two different ryuha, one demo by Meik Skoss and one by Ellis Amdur, and they're differently shaped and used differently. One has a straight, double-edged blade and a handguard just under the blade, and is used for stabs, throat cuts, suppressing the arms, etc, once the chain has caught the blade or the person. The chain is longer and used for catching arms and swords. The other I didn't see as much of, but the chain was shorter and used more for swinging, had a curved blade, and the kata ended with tying up the opponent with the chain and going for the throat, and then a spectacular sweep on the end to avoid having 4 techniques in the kata. (Which is inauspicious to the Japanese. 4 techniques in the kata, 4 of the same technique in a row with no variation in between, either is bad. ) Neither one really went for a stab to the body, it was more joints and throat, though I should point out that the koryu tend to train as if you are wearing armor, so striking the body's often a nono anyway.
    Amdur's comment on the kusarigama is that it is not a battle field weapon, due to the flailing. He's had the experience of sparring with a flail vs a bokken, and having a lot of fun until the chain got caught in a bush. Revenge time for the bokken! His comment was that kusarigama were more of an experiment during peacetime.
    I really dont know much about Kusarigama, never had the chance to see the real use of it, just heard stories that it was made for fighting. And if I see some Kusarigama from the net, they look more for fighting:

    https://www.rakuten.co.jp/chokuhan/img1022398548.jpeg
    http://www.warussepat.fi/gusarikama1.jpg
    http://jin-1.juttemaster.gozaru.jp/kusarigama.htm
    http://aiur.us.es/~arashikiryu/shirotaka/kusariga2.jpg

    It would be really intersting for me if I could see the use from different ryu live.

    Does Admur know that it just was an experiment in peace time or is it just his oppinion?

    Thomas

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgall
    I really dont know much about Kusarigama, never had the chance to see the real use of it, just heard stories that it was made for fighting. And if I see some Kusarigama from the net, they look more for fighting:

    https://www.rakuten.co.jp/chokuhan/img1022398548.jpeg
    http://www.warussepat.fi/gusarikama1.jpg
    http://jin-1.juttemaster.gozaru.jp/kusarigama.htm
    http://aiur.us.es/~arashikiryu/shirotaka/kusariga2.jpg

    It would be really intersting for me if I could see the use from different ryu live.

    Does Admur know that it just was an experiment in peace time or is it just his oppinion?

    Thomas
    Amdur's comment was that it wasn't a BATTLEFIELD weapon, not that it wasn't a weapon. Battlefields of the time were chaotic, messy places where you tend to be in close order with your fellow soldiers. Hitting one of them with a chain weapon, or snagging a bush with it, is a detriment to your own side. It's more likely to be a personal weapon, something that you can use one-on-one. I can see some applications for police work, like with the manriki-gusari.
    As for his comment about peacetime weapons, he was in the middle of demonstrating a kata, so he didn't pull out a booklet in perfect citation form and give us his bibiography. It could have been either his opinion or his knowledge. I don't know.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  10. #25
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    Default I know that kama!

    Quote Originally Posted by TimJurgens
    As for cutting with Kama we had an excellent class in Tameshigiri from Esuke Akamine Sensei's wife when we were there for the world torunament.
    That kama (or one like it) was sitting on the bench just inside the door when I visited in 1999. Anma-sai gave me a little demonstration with sugar cane during that trip. I remember it well.

    Great story Tim. Thanks for sharing.
    Doug Daulton

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