Why do ryu have secrets?

[Charlie Kondek]

I place this here rather than in the Koryu forum because swordsmanship is simply what I know the most about.

If Japanese swordsmanship is relatively basic in its fundamentals (lift blade, bring down on enemy) and some aspects of it are probably somewhat universal, then why do ryu have "secret" or "hidden" values, techniques, or lessons in the curriculum? How different are they? Do the secrets include attitudes toward combat such as "always attack" or "take 'em out first" as well as ethical components like Musashi's "don't start none won't be none?" (<--as paraphrased by Hyaku)

Also, maybe I'm assuming to much when I say JSA is somewhat universal.

[Walker]

I think you can find just about every conceivable answer to this question, but I think the most basic would be "in the group -- out of the group."

On the one hand, secret stuff serves to check authenticity, on the other, one sword school's okuden might very well be found in a collegiate fencing manual.

[Dan Harden]

If Japanese swordsmanship is relatively basic in its fundamentals (lift blade, bring down on enemy) and some aspects of it are probably somewhat universal, then why do ryu have "secret" or "hidden" values, techniques, or lessons in the curriculum? How different are they?
Also, maybe I'm assuming to much when I say JSA is somewhat universal.

Charlie
I for one, am more than happy if people think that JSA are simple and basic in shared fundamentals. Though I cannot imagine men watching arts like Katori, Kashima, Itto, Yagyu and Jigan, Takenouchi and Araki ryu and seeing them as the same! Actually, I find that rather funny. I doubt you will find or read any comparison worth the time though. Who would be qualified to discuss disparate arts in any real depth? And of the very, very, few who may know widely different arts in any real depth or intiation-who would talk about it?

And why not keep the arts separate? Its rather nice to have preserved these cultural and martial treasures. I shudder to think of them given freely and then disseminated to vast numbers of hobbyists world wide. It would be better to see them die off -intact-then to suffer the embarrasment that many arts have become in our hands.

cheers
Dan

[nicojo]

I love how in a samurai movie a character will say, "Ah! It's So-and-so from the Such-and-such-ryu. The secret of their school is to strike as a tiger, so I will act as the pit that ensnares the tiger."

---Charlie

Right, but isn't that the bastardized, ignorant version of the truth? In other words, sure, one who happens to know the secret of another school might develop a counter. But you'll notice that even though everyone seems to know Ogami's "suio-ryu" technique, everyone always dies anyhow. (And yes I've read what suio ryu people say about Ogami Itto/LWC. Just using it as an example.)

What I'd think more likely is that another school might not care so much what another person thinks is their secret. Some things seep out unavoidably and so people develop an idea about another's art. But there is a different perspective. All the time I read silly things about "true aikido" and "ineffective iaido" and so on and so forth. I think that such preconceptions actually work to obscure the actual effectiveness, or school secrets if you will. It's why I don't bother to get in debates with XXX practitioners, not anymore. But I can say that there are easily seen "mistakes" in our style of iaido from another's point of view, but if you know the reasons and the techniques, they aren't mistakes at all.

Well I don't know much about gokui, but I am happy to ignore what preconceptions may be out there about a given art I've practiced. Another may find a certain art useless. But the more misconceptions there are, the easier it is to go about your business.

---
And yes of course there is such a point when secrets are just empty promises to bring in the money. And yes of course there are such times when you have to look honestly at what you are doing and to see if it is benefitting you, and what the actuality is. But I am not talking about those here. Of course it is choose carefully your teacher and style and don't get mixed up in the hype/invented history. That's part of being an adult MA-ist.

---
What I find interesting is if one or two people who have gokui knowledge in two ryu/MA, how do they reconcile if the secrets seem opposing? I have some ideas, but they are my own. But I suppose it is like other conflicts in core-beliefs (gokui?), and if one cannot develop the trust in a ryu to get that core-belief, one will never know.

[nicojo]

Last thoughts:

I have no idea if a secret comes before a technique or vice-versa. In other words, I don't know if someone thinks "I want to make a happy style of martial art" and then figures out techniques that reflect that. Or another style may start with techniques that do something and after a while somebody notices, "Hey we in this style are starting to exhibit happy people--our techniques must contribute to that. Let's call it gokui." I suppose there is a mix of both, and probably some others that are neither. I can suppose examples of both, but I think the point is that there must be a connection between the technique and the secret. Or else it is lacking in both technique and secret.

--
Sometimes I fear I sound like Bruce B. Please mods ban me before that ever happens. I should just not post on esoteric subjects.

[chrismoses]

Sometimes I fear I sound like Bruce B. Please mods ban me before that ever happens. I should just not post on esoteric subjects.

No worries... there. You'd... need to be a... lot more rambling, or would you? Lighten up... you'll come around... Just kidding... or am I?



As Dan pointed out, one of the things I really like is the differences between the arts. We now can perform our inside kata in public, they exist on tape in Japan, and yet I rarely do them publiclly (not like I do much in public anyway, but when given the opportunity...). To some extent it's kind of preserving the tradition by preserving the special nature of some information or techniques. After all, everybody's art has influences from various schools, these things did not develop in the vacuume that we often like to think. For me, a decent part of preserving a tradition is simply having a clear identity and that means keeping some stuff to yourself so that your stuff looks noticeably different from what other people do.

[renfield_kuroda]

Replace "ryu" with "democrats" or "republicans" or "big corporations" or "governments".
Back in the day, the ryu was absolutely a "political" organization in the truest sense; it was a social, economic, militaristic organization with hierarchy and a position in society, that could influence in a manner that was hopefully beneficial to the ryu.
Secrets included not just "technique" that could be used to keep one alive when fighting, but also maintained a distinct strategy and mindset aligned with the goals of the ryu, as opposed to the ryu's enemies, in coherence with the ryu's friends.
A very small part of it was secret advanced techniques that only the highest students learned, partly because none of it would make any sense without advanced understanding anyway, so beginners would just mess it up and cause more harm than good to the ryu, and partly to keep a distinction between us and them.
Without the political/social/economic context, most ryu these days have only the techniques and philosophy, and we aren't killing each other any more, so take it with a grain of salt.

Regards,

r e n

[nicojo]

I tend to see more of a connection to religious groups of various times and developments than to latter-day political groups, but that may be more because of my education (in church schools, not any current beliefs); and in any case, the parallel is the ideology of a group and what supports that, whether liturgy, sacred texts, martial techniques or information filtering. At least as I understand you. I would like to read more on this cultural phenonmenon, but I'm sure all the good stuff is in Japanese, though His Zoliness suggested an interesting-sounding book.
---

Anyhow, it's good to hear that I'm more intelligible than Bruce B, for the moment. Or is it? Maybe I'm more illegible...Or maybe YOU are! Think about it...

[WaterSword]

I think ryu may have secrets to defend the unique identity of the style and sometimes insecurity. Also, it makes sense buisness wise, no one can sell the promise of learning your secret techniques. Not wanting advanced techniques to fall into the hands of inexpierenced may also be a factor.

Also some teachers may be worried that malicious students may become better than them and humiliate them, so to prevent this they have secret techniques. Which does not make sense because the masters have been practicing the techniques for much longer and should always be more profficient.

I think having secret technqiues is silly. It limits progess of a ryu.

[Chris deMonch]

I agree with Ren's take. No sense spreading around the ryu's deeper techniques if a person doesn't have strong enough kihon to make heads or tails of it in the first place. Course, there's more to it than that.
Moreover, I don't think that my Sensei has ever worried about me using the okuden techniques he taught me to show him up. Have you encountered a koryu school that had this air about it?

[hyaku]

Well its a bit strange for me to answer this because as someone who has been well involved with two ryu. Never has there been a time when I have not been shown anything that I was not ready for. Admittedly some of this has been in private. But that's partly because we do so many basics in everyday practice there is no time to cover finer points and waza.

Is there misunderstanding between Oshienai (I'm not teaching you that) and what is assumed to be a secret? Maybe so. Also one might not be ready for a "step up".

A ryu will retain a certain amount to be taught to a successor. Only he gets the "full cup". That to me is reasonable amount of protectionism that stops anyone else making false claims to be some kind of successor of the ryu.

Also I find a tendancy to teach a hell of a lot on a very shallow basis rather than keep certain things secret.

Most of all it should be clearly understood that the teaching of an art is not something that a teacher hands out to to students like a dose of medicine to a well deserving puppy.

It's all out there. Show me a willing student and I will teach him everything I know. One of my main reasons for learning is to show it to others.

[ScottUK]

Show me a willing student and I will teach him everything I know.

Ahh, you just made a rod for your own back, Hyaku-sensei. Just wait 'til I see you next...

[hyaku]

Ahh, you just made a rod for your own back, Hyaku-sensei. Just wait 'til I see you next...

Lol

[quote] Never has there been a time when I have not been shown anything that I was not ready for.

[ScottUK]

Aah, you never mentioned 'ready-for'...

As a 'willing student', I expect (and demand, dammit) to be shown all of Musashi's secret thumb-in-the-eye okuden teachings... I am ready, Obi-wan.

[Ellis Amdur]

In that wonderful American tradition of "sharing," as if in "Circle Up Time," there are some complaints that aspects of the ryu are kept secret and not shared. And that this secrecy holds back progress in the ryu.

O.K., it's not my ryu, and it's publicly documented, so I'm not violating anything, but here is a gokui from Jigen-ryu. "Tombo no kurai" which is, "dragonfly on a post." If you find this needlessly cryptic - sorry, that is, in fact, the entire teaching. There is no additional information given - or needed! In that phrase is all the information necessary to overturn one's understanding of kenjutsu - particularly if one has obsessively practiced Jigen-ryu or something similar for a number of years.

So, "Find that gokui!" No cheating! If you've already been taught or read the answer somewhere keep your mouth shut or be cursed by the gods (Chlamydia and Chagas disease, for starters). First one to figure out this gokui gets a menkyo kaiden in "Denshi-ryu."