Why do ryu have secrets?

[ScottUK]

Ha! Easy...

"He who explains does not understand. He who understands cannot explain!"

All menkyo kaidens to my home address please.

[Charlie Kondek]

I should clarify: when I said "I love it when the movies does this," I didn't mean that I thought real ryu resembled movies.

What, Suio-ryu was not "born of water?" It's not enemies with the Ura-Yagyu and Omote-Yagyu?

I really have only the vaguest ideas what okuden or gokui are, I just thought it was an interesting question. Certainly, in any art, from kenjutsu to cooking, there are characteristics of style that separate them. Look at something as, for example, open-source as boxing, you'll see a lot of styles for which there aren't even any names except maybe the coach's. I think okuden must resemble this: it's just so-and-so's way of doing things. For example, "Oh, that? That's just the style Cus D'Amato developed for Mike Tyson, it's a very old-school way of doing things." I have even heard people say "such-and-such is the secret of my kendo." I think by that they mean, "Here is a way I have of expressing the core fundamental stance of my approach to kendo." I wonder if the Japanese did this in other arts, too? Were their secrets to writing, pottery, dance, government, etc?

However, I appreciate Ren's answer. I hadn't thought of that. A lot of the context must have changed or been reversed since the Tokugawa and other eras in which ryu were created or honed.

[Dave Lowry]

A couple of years ago, I was asked to address the notion of the Bujinkan’s iteration of ninjutsu as a koryu. Part of my response is produced below, which may shed some light on the question currently apprehended here, on “secret teachings.” I have made a few addendums, noted in brackets. My reply here is windier than that of Mr. Amdur’s above, but he essentially nailed it, in my opinion. He gave you an okuden of Jigen ryu. Can you understand it? You could if you had been through the process of that ryu. It has a meaning, both philosophical and brutally literal. Without having gone through the annealing process of that ryu, however, we are left with a vague approximation. Imagine a newly-wed couple asking another couple just celebrating their 50th anniversary, what is the secret of a long and productive marriage? The geezers could give an answer and the youngsters might understand the words. But would they really get it? Of course not. They haven’t been there and so they cannot understand it completely or even adequately.
That said, revelvant portions of my previous remarks:

Aside from Gewertztraminer and spaetzle, the principal Germanic contribution to civilisation has been the word “umvelt.” If you don’t know it, umvelt refers to the particular “world-view” or cognition of an individual or a species. Our perception shapes, in large degree, our world and certainly our reaction to the world around us. A fundamental goal of the ryu—and this is usually completely missed by those on the outside of the ryu—is to formulate a more or less specific umvelt in the member. It isn’t brainwashing. It is rather a method to organise perception and reaction on a neurological and psychological level sufficient to accomplish the acquisition and perfection of skills monopolized by the ryu. In some ways, a Takeuchi ryu exponent, well-trained, “sees” not only combat but life itself, in subtly or dramatically different ways than a member of the Tatsumi ryu. The Ikenobo ryu flower arranger (kadoka) sees a distinctly different potential in a container and flowers than an Ohara ryu kadoka does. They come at it from different perspectives.
It isn’t just a matter of, well the Takeuchi guy would go for a joint lock here while the Tatsumi ryu fellow would employ a strike. No. The Takeuchi guy venerates different ancestors, has a different—or at least in some ways distinctive—umvelt about conflict and life in general. [In some sense, okugi or okuden or whatever, constitute a coalescing of this umvelt. They express it, either literally or in philosophical form or, most commonly, in a combination of both.]

A basic, though difficult to describe reason why the personality of the individual headmaster does not significantly alter the umvelt of the ryu is because of the restrictive and conformist process of the ryu’s training.
There are a lot of arrogant jackasses out there who think that a ryu is just a collection of techniques. That’s why they make ridiculous arguments for ryu “sharing” their stuff to the uninitiated. Hey, you show me the okuden (inner teachngs) from your ryu and we’ll see how it compares to mine. They don’t get it. The techniques of the ryu are only a manifestation of its underlying collective perceptions. The ryu is remarkably constructed. Viewed from the inside, one begins to see the complexity of organisation. Rituals and traditions, the arrangement of the kata, the steps in teaching them, the etiquette; these are all aimed at producing a comprehensive umvelt. [The role of the okugi, in part at least, is a “final review,” a way of putting into complete perspective, this umvelt. Simultaneously, they can act as a stimulus to explore further.] Note that one of the definitions I used for a ryu was the veneration of common ancestors. This is enormously, enormously important in any classical ryu. And it plays an intimate role in shaping the umwelt. By the time a person has reached the level necessary for receiving the headmastery, he has been shaped, literally and figuratively, by the ryu. It is extremely intense and very much isshin-denshin—direct transmission from teacher to student. I am not trying to adopt a “I been there and you haven’t” tone. I am trying to explain how unusual and defining is the nature of training in a classical ryu. To be sure, the personality of the headmaster will have some influence on the ryu while he is in charge. Vastly more influential will have been the collective umvelt of the ryu on him, which is probably a major reason for the continued existence of the ryu itself.

[In answer to the question about the value of maintaining secrecy vis-à-vis a ryu’s okuden, we can see that the corporate “persona” of the ryu is codified and vivified through these. They are an expression of its inner character. True, there would have been reasons, strategic in the case of martial ryu and from a mercantile sense in other ryu who depended upon a following of loyal and paying students for their maintenance as secret teachings. But these cannot explain the full nature of the okuden and the secrecy surrounding them. Nor can the “we’re in and you’re out” kind of fraternal elitism charge often leveled against the ryu. Secrets exist within the ryu for many reasons, not the least of which is that their revelations would be of no practical benefit to those not imbued in the teachings of the ryu. And bastardized dilutions of them that would inevitably be soon aborning if they were shared would do little but compromise the integrity and reputation of the real thing.]

Cordially,

[Charlie Kondek]

Dave, excellent, excellent post. Thanks.

This may be kind of a dumb question, but: are any of the umvelt of the various ryu known to the public? Are any of the worldview characteristics known? You can sometimes get a flavor from reading about them in various publications or sources, like Go Rin No Sho and other primary sources or articles. Can one get a flavor by reading about the association of a given ryu with the political currents of the time?

Also, it seems to me that some arts have an umvelt without being intricately constructed like a classical ryu. That is, the umvelt of a gendai art is much broader, but it's there, just part of the culture.

[nicojo]

Hey Charlie,

I wasn't implying you saw chanbara and all that as the real thing. I've no doubt we have the same sort of appreciation for that, as well as training, and have an idea of where which one goes.

I was just using it to make a different point about "secrecy" that occured to me as a tangent since I don't know so much about this other stuff. Anyhow, it's always nice when a discussion gets more interesting than anything I put into it; I am happy reading from here on out.

[Charlie Kondek]

Hey Charlie,

I wasn't implying you saw chanbara and all that as the real thing. I've no doubt we have the same sort of appreciation for that, as well as training, and have an idea of where which one goes.

I was just using it to make a different point about "secrecy" that occured to me as a tangent since I don't know so much about this other stuff. Anyhow, it's always nice when a discussion gets more interesting than anything I put into it; I am happy reading from here on out.

You can't fool me. This is a deception technique from the Arid Zone-ryu designed to placate me and throw me off my guard.

Follow-up question:

This thread grew out of some of Ellis' posts on the current Araki-ryu thread in the Koryu forum. Those of you that have participated in a ryu - to what extent, and in what way, has it shaped your worldview? Did you see the worldview of the ryu evidenced in others, a teacher of that ryu, for example?

[Walker]

Follow-up question:

This thread grew out of some of Ellis' posts on the current Araki-ryu thread in the Koryu forum. Those of you that have participated in a ryu - to what extent, and in what way, has it shaped your worldview? Did you see the worldview of the ryu evidenced in others, a teacher of that ryu, for example?

Well, you are the company you keep and birds of a feather... I kind of find it eerie how similar in subtle unexpected ways members of ryu can be without ceasing to be individuals. Is it selection? Is it influence? Are we possessed by the ghosts of our forbearers? I don't have an answer.

[Marc Renouf]

I think that part of that is the "cult of personality" phenomenon that takes place in many long-standing organizations. The forces that comprise it are subtle but powerful. People who don't "fit in" (be it in belief, ability, attitude, or mind-set) will never feel truly welcome, and will usually leave. People who share the beliefs and attitudes of the organization will feel right at home, and be more likely to stay. They will also recruit people who share their outlooks. The more this occurs, the stronger the "culture" of the organization becomes, until the "umvelt" of that organization means that membership in the organization is largely self-selecting. It's natural grouping based on social pressures.

[wmuromoto]

Charlie wrote (snips):

"...This may be kind of a dumb question, but: are any of the umvelt of the various ryu known to the public? Are any of the worldview characteristics known? You can sometimes get a flavor from reading about them in various publications or sources, like Go Rin No Sho and other primary sources or articles. Can one get a flavor by reading about the association of a given ryu with the political currents of the time?

Also, it seems to me that some arts have an umvelt without being intricately constructed like a classical ryu. That is, the umvelt of a gendai art is much broader, but it's there, just part of the culture..."

Charlie, with the sincerest respect for your questions, I'm going to go out on a limb here with my conjecturing, but I personally don't see that you can really get the full "flavor" of a koryu by simply reading some publications. I also have yet to find a modern budo that approaches what I have felt and observed in a koryu vis a vis a coherent mental construct of "how things work." Certainly, some hints of a koryu's world view are available here and there, but they may not make the right sense to us outsiders because we are not privy to the rest of the koryu's baggage, including strategems and kata meanings. The Gorin Sho, perhaps, may give you insight into kendo, but it's a kendoist's interpretation. Not, perhaps, what Musashi meant for his few students. And certainly, Musashi never meant it to be read by American businessmen seeking an excuse for their own slash and burn business practises. If you really want to understand what the Gorin Sho means, I would suspect you'd have to do some of the Niten Ichi-ryu.

Also, I don't mean to belittle the real advances made in technical development of the modern budo, nor the good work done by academicians and researchers, but it's all about the "you gotta feel it in your bones" school of thought; you have to bite into an apple to really know what an apple tastes like. To know a koryu's okuden, you have to DO the koryu. I can read about an okuden in a book about the Yagyu family sword school, but I certainly don't know truly what they mean. I can imagine, but I can't KNOW.

In chanoyu--tea ceremony--there are "secret" temae (sort of like kata) that are not taught or usually shown to "outsiders." This works much like the okuden of koryu bujutsu. Having been instructed in some of them, I can at least say that they are not necessarily "intricately" constructed or delicately fragile. They are compounded movements found in all the basic, public temae, but put together they create a sense, structure and unifying pattern to one's movements that, if absorbed, follows through on all that you learned in the basics and can indicate that one is a student of the Urasenke school, as opposed to, say, the Omotesenke, and so forth.

The reason they are not taught at the beginning certainly has to do with keeping students paying their dues long enough so that they support the school, making the school distinct from other schools, and other mundane reasons, but I really feel that there is another reason: okuden can only be taught and are only effective when you understand enough of what you are doing for them to make sense. If not, it's like pearls before swine. WHEN you are ready for it depends on the teacher's perception of your skills, of course, and herein lies the rub, because eager students are all too often dissatisfied with not learning things fast enough that they confuse quality (learning what they do know well) with quantity (learning as many kata--poorly--as possible).

The difference between a trick passed on from a boxer to a trainer is that quite often, it's a trick, a singular and separate technique that does not fit into any wider view of how boxing figures into one's life, one's boxing strategies and outside-the-ring attitude. Okuden, even of techniques, have attached kuden, oral teachings that may be only tangentially related to the technique or not, but when taught, must lead the student to question and study other aspects of the ryu and it's methodologies.

A good fighter, say a boxer or modern sport fighter, can make a good showing if he picks and chooses different "tricks," or techniques and creates a series of techniques, but they remain techniques, and do not necessarily connote a system that is attached to a particular "unvelt," as Dave puts it. These techniques can be passed down, perhaps even codified and made into some kind of modern "kata," although he/she may not call it such, but the endeavor still does not reach a comprehensive mental-physical-psychological unity...at least, not that I've seen so far of the modernists.

This is not to say that a "modern" boxer or ring fighter is ineffective. In a competitive environment, what works, works. But you're asking about okuden, secrets and world views, and these things are what the koryu are especially good at, since they have had several centuries to compile them and then to modify and tweak them.

In addition, the modern budo, beginning with judo, were MEANT not to have okuden. Kano Jigoro attempted to create a scientific, logical basis for his judo techniques, without hidden or esoteric meaning. All other Japanese budo pretty much followed suit. That, perhaps, is a strong point for modern budo. It's got to make sense, it's got to be practical (what "practical" means can be open to debate, of course), and it's got to be teachable to a wide range of people and in large, public classes.

I ramble here, but also, the reticense to divulge technical okuden by koryu people should be understandable. Let's say you've spent ten years in a koryu, endured loss of substantial income and a lot of really bad donburi and squat toilets while living in Japan, to finally be taught the higher levels of okuden after your teacher finally thinks you're ready for it.

You go back to America and then some yahoo says, "Hey, I'll give ya ten bucks if you teach me the okuden of your koryu so that I can go off and start my own school."

Wouldn't you feel insulted?

That said, I've had teachers, within one or two months of my stay in Japan, who would teach me advanced methods and write their kuden on a blackboard for us all to see. But see, we were part of the "in group" already. Those that are in, are in. Those that aren't, aren't.

Sincerely,
Wayne Muromoto

[Kim Taylor]

Secrets? There are secrets?

Kim "obviously not good enough to be told secrets" Taylor

[hyaku]

Charlie wrote (snips):

The Gorin Sho, perhaps, may give you insight into kendo, but it's a kendoist's interpretation. Not, perhaps, what Musashi meant for his few students. And certainly, Musashi never meant it to be read by American businessmen seeking an excuse for their own slash and burn business practises. If you really want to understand what the Gorin Sho means, I would suspect you'd have to do some of the Niten Ichi-ryu......

Thanks Mr Muromoto. I would add to say "a lot of Niten Ichiryu". It's a lifetime's study and the writings only confirm one's ability to a point.

But when we talk of secret teachings or "Certain teachings reserved to be taught to few" aren't we mainly talking about one person? The successor of a ryu.

Having recently been privileged to witness and take part in such a process of handing down a ryu I have learned a lot. It has also clearly brought to mind how others might have reached this final process in the past.

1.You can teach someone all you know but there is no guarantee that they
will pull it off.

2. A strong sense of dutiful honour and obligation.

3. The consideration that some people make good practitioners, others good teachers, preferabley both.

4. The days of being able to test it out for real have long gone.

Within an association its not a major problem. But choosing one individual or a few? Glad I dont have to do it.

One thing for sure is no one will get any of this "secret teaching" on paper. From my observations up to now certificates "probably" confirm what you
know and can do. But looking at some qualified people's practice and some new and old videos of people with about as much hakuryoku as a snail even that's not always the case.

[kokumo]

First one to figure out this gokui gets a menkyo kaiden in "Denshi-ryu."

A couple of years ago, an acquaintance who trains in an American Shorin-Ryu Karate offshoot told me he'd just been given the title of Denshi and wanted to know what it meant.

So I cracked open that Nelson's dictionary and advised him that either somebody mistook Renshi for Denshi or he had just been designated an electronic particle.....

But somehow I don't think that's what you mean.

Fred Little

[Ellis Amdur]

Of course electron is what I mean - figure out the gokui and I will give you a menkyo kaiden as an electron warrior.

[kokumo]

and now sitting in a sealed mayonaisse jar on Funk & Wagnall's back porch, awaiting the judge's perusal.

If I might ask....are you the Kaiso, Chuko-no-So, or a Menkyo Kaiden of Denshi-Ryu?

Oops....time to practice.

Fred Little

[Charlie Kondek]

Thanks for the replies, guys. Wayne, certainly I didn't mean the "full flavor" of a ryu could be given in words or described. That's why I used the world "flavor," maybe I could have said "the scent." Just a description. Kendo World has been running a great series of articles on koryu and often some descriptions of the ryu's worldview are given. I wondered if any of these were possible. If, for example, Hyaku or someone could say something like, I dunno, "The practitioner of Niten Ichi ryu seeks to be a productive member of his society but his first priority isto himself." Or something.

What I meant by this being similar to gendai is that both seem to have cultures, that all pasttimes have cultures, and that a gendai arts has a much broader, accessible and undefined culture than, it seems, a koryu does. (I know nothing about koryu culture except what I observe here.) I mean, kendoists talk all the time about the culture of kendo in general or their dojo specifically and aside from a few universal mores like "hard work," "perseverance" and "doing your best," interpretation of kendo culture is open to individual interpretation. When Dave said koryu have umvelts or worldviews I thought it was like a "culture" but much more specific.

I wish someone could describe it for me more, within readon - you're all doing a fine job, I guess it's just not clicking for me. Like, have you pondered the umvelt of your ryu and thought things, like, I dunno, "So does this mean I should always be ready to kill or ready to die?" or "Which comes first, society or individual?" I dunno. Tell me more? Can it even be told?