Toshindo's Bojutsu DVD

[poryu]

But I'm not going to spend $60 just to mostly see Hayes and Bussey talk about their own little thing/views/ideas. .

Rest assured they play a very small minor point in the dvd.

After seeing 2 of Hayes recently released Bojutsu DVD I was shocked at how seriously limited his knowledge of Kukishin ryu Bojutsu is. What respect I had for him and his involvement in the USA Bujinkan went 100% the day i viewed them and listened to the rubbish he was coming out with.

[Hoshi_Ryu]

Rest assured they play a very small minor point in the dvd.

After seeing 2 of Hayes recently released Bojutsu DVD I was shocked at how seriously limited his knowledge of Kukishin ryu Bojutsu is. What respect I had for him and his involvement in the USA Bujinkan went 100% the day i viewed them and listened to the rubbish he was coming out with.

If you think that's bad, his new DVD's also catch him using a straight blade, square guard, "ninja-to". You'd think after all the hassle he got about choku-to that he'd stop using it by now, esspecially since he should know better. If I had respect for him before, I lost it when I saw that.

[R Erman]

After seeing 2 of Hayes recently released Bojutsu DVD I was shocked at how seriously limited his knowledge of Kukishin ryu Bojutsu is. What respect I had for him and his involvement in the USA Bujinkan went 100% the day i viewed them and listened to the rubbish he was coming out with.

At the risk of encouraging a major thread drift, I would ask what else of his recent material have you seen?

I would hope a couple of monthly lessons on Bojutsu wouldn't be all it takes to lose respect for someone...

Cheers,

Rob Erman

[poryu]

HI Rob

one example of the bojutsu dvd I will give is this

One dvd I have is the Kuji no Bo (think thats the name)

It has the first 2 kuji no bo kata. where he got these I dont know but they are not gernally taught in the Bujinkan as far as I am aware. So it would be nice for him to name his teacher for those kata.

He states quite clearly that the Kuji no bo is related to Kuji Kiri

complete and utter crap.

Its actually relates to the fact that set of kata has 9 kata, thats why its called Kuji no Bo. He had been taught them properly and took time to look into it he would know that it has absolutely bothing to do with Kuji in any shape or form.

He does a Kamae which he calles Tenchijin no kamae which looks like Chudan no kamae from the kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho.

There is a lot more, but this is enough to explain how bad the info is

[R Erman]

Hi Paul,

I have no doubt that the errors you are pointing out are valid--I really wasn't questioning that. I was simply stating that losing 'what repsect you had for him' based soley on his knowledge of bojutsu is a little presumptive. I think Mr Hayes shines with his application of unarmed kata--not his weapon work. I would highly suggest looking at some of his takagi yoshin dvd's, if you can get ahold of a couple of them. I've been pretty impressed with those I've seen.

I've always respected your opinion, and obvious knowledge of history. You carry yourself online as someone with a lot of personal integrity, and not someoone who simply parrots the bujinkan party line. So my question was respectful inquiry as to what else you have seen.

[poryu]

Hi Rob

Sorry I slightly misunderstood your post and i stand corrected.

After what I have seen of the two bojutsu DVD I was given, the shuriken one I also have and the comments regarding the continued use of straight swords. I will have to say I am going to pass on the Takagi Videos. He may be good at Taijutsu and his Takagi work may be very good, but if all of the dvd I have seen are loaded with inaccurate info then I wont buy a DVD again in case I am once more disappointed.

The other thing that bothered me was that Mr Hayes is issuing licenses in these arts,something I think he is definately not entitled to.

[George Kohler]

One dvd I have is the Kuji no Bo (think thats the name)

It has the first 2 kuji no bo kata. where he got these I dont know but they are not gernally taught in the Bujinkan as far as I am aware. So it would be nice for him to name his teacher for those kata.

He states quite clearly that the Kuji no bo is related to Kuji Kiri

Hi Paul,

I do not know where Mr. Hayes recieved his instruction on "Kuji no Ho" (I've never heard it called "Kuji no Bo"), but it is related to Kuji Kiri.

[poryu]

HI George

I will dig out the DVd and check the exact title

I have spoken with some one in the Kukishin Ryu and they told me that it was not Kuji Kiri.

I will ask again and get back with an answer

[R Erman]

Hi Paul,

I do not know where Mr. Hayes recieved his instruction on "Kuji no Ho" (I've never heard it called "Kuji no Bo"), but it is related to Kuji Kiri.

Hi George,

It is not Kuji no Ho, but Kuji no Bo--these are specific bojutsu kata he is teaching on the videos. I think they are his own invention--maybe a pre-cursor to classical kata...Mike Stinson might know.

Cheers,

Rob

[George Kohler]

Hi George,

It is not Kuji no Ho, but Kuji no Bo--these are specific bojutsu kata he is teaching on the videos. I think they are his own invention--maybe a pre-cursor to classical kata...Mike Stinson might know.

Cheers,

Rob

Hi Rob,

Based on what Paul was talking about, i.e. "set of kata has 9 kata", it sounds very much like the "Kuji no Ho". I believe the "Kuji no Ho" and "Kutsu no Ho" were developed by Kiba Koshiro (I've also heard it was developed by Takamatsu Sensei) and are considered part of the Shobukyoku gata. Both sets contains 9 kata each.

Paul,
As per Tanemura Sensei, the Kuji no Ho has "kuji kiri".

If anyone wants to see some of these kata, Tanemura Sensei has a video called "Kukishin-ryu Shobukyoku Gata" and can be purchased by anyone (open to the public).

[R Erman]

Hi Rob,

Based on what Paul was talking about, i.e. "set of kata has 9 kata", it sounds very much like the "Kuji no Ho". I believe the "Kuji no Ho" and "Kutsu no Ho" were developed by Kiba Koshiro (I've also heard it was developed by Takamatsu Sensei) and are considered part of the Shobukyoku gata. Both sets contains 9 kata each.

Paul,
As per Tanemura Sensei, the Kuji no Ho has "kuji kiri".

If anyone wants to see some of these kata, Tanemura Sensei has a video called "Kukishin-ryu Shobukyoku Gata" and can be purchased by anyone (open to the public).

George,

Thank you for the info. Now I really wonder if these are the same kata...if so, why the name change?

[George Kohler]

I splitted this thread from the "Shinobi Documentary" thread.

[George Kohler]

George,

Thank you for the info. Now I really wonder if these are the same kata...if so, why the name change?

After reviewing SKH's website, I'm not sure if his kata have anything to do with "Kuji no Ho". Can anyone describe what the first two kata on the DVD looks like? And do they have any names?

[Emrys]

I believe what An Shu Stephen K Hayes is demonstrating on his bojutsu tapes is called Shoden Gata. These I believe are the kata that Hatsumi Sensei demonstrates briefly at the end of his Bojutsu tape. On DVD number 3 which covers kata 8 and 9 he states that there is also Chuden and Okuden and other levels beside.

I first saw An Shu Hayes teaching these kata back in 1996, pre To-Shin Do and so is not something he has recently just made up.

In the original kata the techniques were given names like Kangi, Hakugi etc, yet on the An Shu Hayes tapes they are called Dai Ippo, Dai Niho (number 1 and 2 etc). This is probably just to make it easier.

In the shobukyoku Gata the techniques for bo are the Sabaki gata i.e Goho, Ura Goho, Sasshia etc. There is a set of Kuji No Kutsu and Kuji Kiri but these relate to the Jo. Just to confuse matters further however, as An Shu Hayes states on the DVDs, in the old days all these weapons were taught as one thing i.e yari, bo, naginata, but in more recent times have become split up into seperate Kata patterns.

Therefore even in the Shobukyoku the Jo can be substituted for Bo or even Hanbo. See the Kukishin Ryu book by Kiba Koshiro.

As for the Kuji no bo being related to Kuji Kiri well if it is or not An Shu Hayes should know. He is one of the foremost authoritise on the subject and one of the only ones to have done any serious studying on this subject in the western world. So unless you have spent a great deal of time with Hatsumi Sensei, in the days when he taught Ninjutsu, spent time with the Dalai Lama, and spent time with Japanese priests involved in Mikkyo then I would reserve comment.

As George Kohler has stated, Tanemura has stated that it is related to Kuji Kiri. However I think its worth pointing out that the Japanese possibly have many meanings when it comes to the Kuji Kiri. Remember at its most basic Kuji Kiri means Nine Sylable Cuts, possibly Dai Ippo etc. The movements of the bo itself are maybe Kuji Kiri. Especially if the means of Kuji Kiri is to hypnotise.

I'm surmising here but maybe some of the movements of the bo are to hypnotise the attacker into believing one thing, then attacking somewhere else, thus sowing the seeds of confusion.

Maybe another Kata is to allow the attacker to believe he is going to win yet is defeated by his own confidence.

Is'nt this Kuji. Or maybe one believes its a simply matter of knitting the fingers together and issueing a few magic words.

[El Guapo-san]

Em, bah.

I like Kiba Koshiro's book "Kukishin Ryu Bujutsu: Bojutsu, Hanbojutsu, Tachiai". We did some of that in class a couple of months ago. Very cool.

For Mikkyo you might try looking up some of the articles on it at the Nanzan Institute. (http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/...blications.htm) I would think that you would need a firmer grounding in the framework surrounding such a thing before you would want to try to learn it or to impart such knowledge to others. There is such a framework in Kukishin (-den), correct?

J. Vlach