Meaning of Yoseikan

[fridayja]

And now that I think about it, I was the senior yoseikan man on the mat that day, in terms of years of experience, other than Hiroo Sensei. I had had 23 years of yoseikan experience by then, five in Japan, two as uchi deshi to Minoru sensei. Of course, there was Mr. Beaudry, but I wonder if he had had 23 years of yoseikan by the time of that seminar?

How can you say that you were the senior yoseikan man on the mat in terms of years of experience other than Master Hiroo when you state in your next post that Dr. Pack was at the clinic.

[fridayja]

[QUOTE=kimiwane]
Of course not. As I told you, the USYBA students took ukemi for Hiroo sensei after Dr. Pack told Hiroo sensei not to use me as uke. So the omission in the tape will be before any USYBA students take ukemi for Hiroo.
QUOTE]

Which is correct?

[Robert Cheshire]

Has anybody ever talked to you about being bipolar? How is it that we can agree to disagree on a kata then you go off on a manic tear about being (or not being) on a tape?

What I said, or for the sake of being clear, is that I didn't see you being used to take ukemi to demonstrate to the group. I never said that Master Hiroo didn't throw you (hence you taking ukemi for him) when he came around to the group you were in.

I might indeed owe you an apology about saying that Beaudry was the one he brought to do ukemi. After reviewing the tape, as you requested me to do, I noticed the other USYBA black belts that took ukemi for Master Hiroo. However, even they took only a few falls for him. Beaudry took all the rest.

Senior man on the mat? Perhaps you should mention that to the several people there that out ranked you. The same ones that I did see take ukemi for Master Hiroo. Wait, I know....the plot to show you didn't take ukemi...forgive me.

They really do have some great next generation medications out there these days.

[Robert Cheshire]

Well if USYBA wants to hang on to its status as even a sickly martial arts organization, they should get you up to speed on some facts of legal liability in written communications and how to state your objections without violating the civil rights or slandering the name of someone who has much deeper experience in the subject than you. You have the right to protect your little organization, but you don't have the right to slander me as you have done repeatedly on this public forum. And you don't have the right to issue these official lies without feeling some consequences from it. You have made USYBA liable for your foolishly recorded and undeniable statements as you make every one on the authority of your position as Mr. President of USYBA.

Etymology: Middle English sclaundre, slaundre, from Old French esclandre, from Late Latin scandalum stumbling block, offense -- more at SCANDAL
1 : the utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame and damage another's reputation
2 : a false and defamatory oral statement about a person -- compare LIBEL

Etymology: Middle English, written declaration, from Middle French, from Latin libellus, diminutive of liber book
1 a : a written statement in which a plaintiff in certain courts sets forth the cause of action or the relief sought b archaic : a handbill especially attacking or defaming someone
2 a : a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression b (1) : a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt (2) : defamation of a person by written or representational means (3) : the publication of blasphemous, treasonable, seditious, or obscene writings or pictures (4) : the act, tort, or crime of publishing such a libel

From the web at www.m-w.com (Merriam-Webster Online). I don't think either of these have occured.

sober up before you go shooting your mouth off and lose your tongue.

This is an interesting choice of words.

[P Goldsbury]

Gentlemen,

Could we keep this conversation civil, please.

I intepret Rule 4 of the Forum Rules, posted at the head of each forum, to include calling someone a liar directly. I will lock the thread of this goes on much longer.

[kimiwane]

How can you say that you were the senior yoseikan man on the mat in terms of years of experience other than Master Hiroo when you state in your next post that Dr. Pack was at the clinic.

Was he on the mat?

I might be mistaken. If he was on the mat, training, then I was wrong.

[Bartleby]

I would like to weigh in here. I have reviewed the tapes of the Shihan clinic and was in attendance for the duration as well. I will speak only of my memory as it is the only thing that I can say with absolute certainty is true. The tapes are unedited and there is no break in the filming that I could percieve. I was aware of Mr. Orange's presence on the mat, although I didn't practice with him directly. I did not however observe David take any ukemi directly from Shihan in the form of formal demonstration. Perhaps Shihan used David as uke in a smaller group as he gave correction to individual pairs or groups working on technique after the formal demonstrations? I cannot say whether such is the case or not. I was intent upon my own training at the time.

I do however recall that Mr. Orange was asked to please refrain from interrupting the translation process by the Technical Director of the USYBA, and was not present on the second day of workouts.

As Jason pointed out, Mr. Orange was not the senior U.S. Yoseikan person on the mat. Glenn Pack who was promoted to Rokudan by Shihan that day was present at all workouts, as well as several others promoted to Sandan at that same time.

It is not my intention to call anyone a liar. I am simply stating my reccollections of that clinic of which I was an active and attentive participant. I may not have Mr. Orange's long standing history with Yoseikan in Japan, but I am without any particular axe to grind with either USYBA or Mr. Orange. I simply love Yoseikan, both as it has been taught to me by my teachers in it's older form and in it's current state by both Shihan and Mitchi Mochizuki.

I find these politics to be a bit tiresome, and while it is obvious that all parties feel strongly about their positions, I would like to remind everyone that both Shiihans Minoru and Hiroo detested this kind of hostility. Defend your positions, there is no fault in that but lets keep the venom private shall we?

Respectfully,

Matt Gilliard

[Bartleby]

Was he on the mat?

I might be mistaken. If he was on the mat, training, then I was wrong.

Pack Sensei was definately on the mat at that clinic. In a limited capacity, due to a heath issue but I specifically recall a few ukemi he gifted me with when I was having trouble grasping a new entry Shihan was demonstrating.

Matt Gilliard

[kimiwane]

[QUOTE=fridayja][QUOTE=kimiwane]
Of course not. As I told you, the USYBA students took ukemi for Hiroo sensei after Dr. Pack told Hiroo sensei not to use me as uke. So the omission in the tape will be before any USYBA students take ukemi for Hiroo.
QUOTE]

Which is correct?

By my admittedly sometimes fallible memory, Dr. Pack in the gym, in his gi, but I don't recall his joining the training. I'm sure the tape will tell.

The only other people senior to me at that clinic (in terms of years) were Barry Ackerson and Rick Moncrief and by my old man's memory, neither of them dressed out but both watched.

Thanks for your interest. Please let me know what your research reveals.

[kimiwane]

Has anybody ever talked to you about being bipolar? How is it that we can agree to disagree on a kata then you go off on a manic tear about being (or not being) on a tape?

You and Phil remind me of the snake brother kung fu fighters I saw in a movie a long time ago, jumping up on each other's shoulders, popping out from between one another's legs, attacking high and low with endless jabby jabby hissy hissy attacks that are amusing except for the fact that you're obviously trying to do serious damage.

What I said, or for the sake of being clear, is that I didn't see you being used to take ukemi to demonstrate to the group.

And you and brother hu maintained that my omission on the tape proved that I never took ukemi in the demonstration. And the fact is, Hiroo sensei was talking to the whole group on a technical point and called me forward, while the whole group stood (but apparently few of you were watching) and demonstrated the main technique with me as uke.

I never said that Master Hiroo didn't throw you (hence you taking ukemi for him) when he came around to the group you were in.

He didn't. He demonstrated for the entire clinic group, using me as uke.

I might indeed owe you an apology about saying that Beaudry was the one he brought to do ukemi. After reviewing the tape, as you requested me to do, I noticed the other USYBA black belts that took ukemi for Master Hiroo. However, even they took only a few falls for him. Beaudry took all the rest.

I'll humbly accept your apology if you finally decide to actually make it.

I said a took a number of ukemi for Hiroo sensei in his technical demonstrations to the whole group and that remains as true as when I said it. You and Phil have said a lot of widely varying things. And that is completely consistent with the USYBA I have known for all these many years.

Senior man on the mat? Perhaps you should mention that to the several people there that out ranked you. The same ones that I did see take ukemi for Master Hiroo. Wait, I know....the plot to show you didn't take ukemi...forgive me.

They really do have some great next generation medications out there these days.

If they screw up everyone's memories as they seem to have done yours and Phil's, I think I'll pass.

[kimiwane]

Gentlemen,

Could we keep this conversation civil, please.

I intepret Rule 4 of the Forum Rules, posted at the head of each forum, to include calling someone a liar directly. I will lock the thread of this goes on much longer.

Please accept my apologies. Mea maxima culpa. And thank you for your tolerance. Also for an indication than anyone is reading this thread at all.

[Phil Farmer]

Peter,

Please, enough is enough. Lock out this thread. It is obvious that this is going nowhere and the rules of the forums have already been violated. No matter what anyone says to dispute Mr. Orange, he only finds another insult or rant to go off on. I don't appreciate his resorting to threats and the name calling so please just lock out this thread, it is doing no one any good.

Phil Farmer

[kimiwane]

I will speak only of my memory as it is the only thing that I can say with absolute certainty is true. The tapes are unedited and there is no break in the filming that I could percieve.

Well, Matt, you said you would speak only of your memory and then you spoke of the tapes. If you don't perceive a break in the filming, you need to watch again very carefully.

I was aware of Mr. Orange's presence on the mat, although I didn't practice with him directly. I did not however observe David take any ukemi directly from Shihan in the form of formal demonstration.

Again, this speaks more of your own powers of observation than it does of my participation.

I do however recall that Mr. Orange was asked to please refrain from interrupting the translation process by the Technical Director of the USYBA, and was not present on the second day of workouts.

Well, I don't recall any USYBA training clinics lasting 9 hours on a single day. And my Yoseikan passport is stamped with the statement that I attended 9 hours of training with Hiroo sensei. I don't remember if I was there two days or not, but the record says 9 hours. Maybe I was just so quiet the second day that you didn't notice me there? Or did we do 9 hours on Saturday?

As Jason pointed out, Mr. Orange was not the senior U.S. Yoseikan person on the mat. Glenn Pack who was promoted to Rokudan by Shihan that day was present at all workouts, as well as several others promoted to Sandan at that same time.

Yeah, that's why I was careful to point out "senior in terms of years of experience in yoseikan". It was 23 years then, 30 years next month.

It is not my intention to call anyone a liar. I am simply stating my reccollections of that clinic of which I was an active and attentive participant.

Apparently your attention wandered at various points. Even monkeys fall from trees.

I may not have Mr. Orange's long standing history with Yoseikan in Japan, but I am without any particular axe to grind with either USYBA or Mr. Orange. I simply love Yoseikan, both as it has been taught to me by my teachers in it's older form and in it's current state by both Shihan and Mitchi Mochizuki.

That's the spirit, then. The important thing is a foundation in truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

I find these politics to be a bit tiresome, and while it is obvious that all parties feel strongly about their positions, I would like to remind everyone that both Shiihans Minoru and Hiroo detested this kind of hostility. Defend your positions, there is no fault in that but lets keep the venom private shall we?

It's true that sensei remained civil, for the much greater part, but he could put his foot down when necessary. Representatives of USYBA have attacked me with various untrue claims and crude distortions of the truth. If you don't like this kind of political behavior, then I suggest you vote appropriately at the next USYBA election and get someone in as President who will not embarrass you with unfounded attacks on martial artists who are also citizens of the United States. You should think carefully of the liability he has exposed USYBA to by making the false statements he has made under the title of "President, USYoseiakan Budo Association."

Best wishes.

[kimiwane]

Pack Sensei was definately on the mat at that clinic. In a limited capacity, due to a heath issue but I specifically recall a few ukemi he gifted me with when I was having trouble grasping a new entry Shihan was demonstrating.

Well, there you go. If he was on the mat, I was only the second-longest-experienced yoseikan man on the mat that day, other than Hiroo sensei (unless Mr. Beaudry had more than 23 years of training at that time).

I never mind admitting when I am wrong.

[kimiwane]

Please, enough is enough. Lock out this thread. It is obvious that this is going nowhere and the rules of the forums have already been violated. No matter what anyone says to dispute Mr. Orange, he only finds another insult or rant to go off on. I don't appreciate his resorting to threats and the name calling so please just lock out this thread, it is doing no one any good.

Is that a 'no mas' Phil?

I wouldn't say this thread is going nowhere. I have admitted where I was wrong. I have addressed points that have been raised. Robert has admitted he might have erred.

Only you remain adamant and immovable. You have made scurillous attacks on me and many of sensei's longest-standing students, obviously "on behalf" of the Mochizuki family, but I don't think they would appreciate it if they knew what you were doing. You seemed much more confident in your private e-mails to me. Remember, you started this all by attacking me when I protested the Tuscaloosa club's use of my material. You took it on yourself to threaten me for defending my copyright. You have twisted and misrepresented the facts in a way that has exposed your organization to the consequences of your misguided actions. Will you be so stiff that the correct wind (sei fu) will break you?

It's always better to bend.