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Thread: How do you define "sports" karate?

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    Default How do you define "sports" karate?

    Depending on one's orientation, the label of "sports karate" is often taken as and intended to be a kind of insult. The implication being that if you are doing sports karate you are not doing real karate and people get really offended if they don't think they are doing sports karate and someone says that they are.

    My experience of this occured when a teacher of Okinawan karate visited a school I was training at and he said that we did really good sports karate. I was so insulted and dismayed because I respected his view. It also was the beginning of my awareness that there was a lot I had to learn about karate. I didn't quit that school right then and I didn't end up training with that teacher. I did, however, eventually stop doing what he called "sports karate".

    If asked, I would say that what I am trying to learn now is not sports karate. So, I went looking for a definition of the word "sport" in an online dictionary. Dictionary.com's definition of sport is "Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively"

    The karate that I train does have a set of rules and customs associated with it, however I do not engage in it competitively. Maybe the dictionary definition doesn't offer much help here.

    I see sports karate as any karate in which techniques used put one at serious risk of being killed or disabled by another person who wants to hurt them. That is, the focus is not 100% on the most effective way of avoiding serious injury or being killed in everything one trains.

    I am interested to hear from others about how they define it. I trust that this question will spark some debate and hopefully we can all enjoy it. If you do sports karate how do you define it. If you don't do sports karate how do you know it?

    The term is thrown around so much, I wondered how people thought through their defintions.

    Best regards,
    Tim
    Tim Black
    Kokusai Shinjinbukan

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    Default Sports karate

    Hi Tim,

    An interesting topic. I define 'sports karate' as the practice of karate where the major goal is entering and winning tournaments and such competitions. Whether it be kumite or kata, the focus is on winning some sort of prize, on placing. All techniques/movements are analyzed from the perspective of the competitor. Will it help score points? Will it impress the judges? Will the spectators be impressed?

    That is not to say that there is anything wrong with so-called sports karate. I do feel it is different from 'classical karate', but each type has a place and one should choose based on one's goals.

    Regards,

    Todd
    Nullius in verba

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    Default sport and non-sport

    In my opinion Sport Karate is any set of training that takes the interpretation Kata out of the curriculum. I think that Kata interpretation is very important when it comes to teaching not only Karate, but any Martial Art.

    I apologize for my spelling, I know it's terrible.
    David Livingston

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    Default a sporting chance

    My experience was exactly the same Tim, and I agree with your definition...hmmm maybe our experiences being similar is why I agree; hopefully i'm being objective. My view is that Karate in general translates poorly into sport form, that is to say a Karate training methodology for winning a competitive event (NHB stuff counts too IMO as 'sport') by nature is widely different from a Karate training methodology that exphasizes long-term self defense from an uninvited, and usually random source of violence, and it seems to me 'traditional' Karate is the latter. I've met some who have done both well, but I question the relevancy of one form of training to the other I guess, in the end two different goals has to equal two different methods.
    Last edited by ZachZinn; 23rd July 2005 at 20:50.
    Zachariah Zinn

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    Default NHB as sport

    Hi Zach:

    I would agree with your categorization of NHB martial arts as sport, and not to say that those guys aren't tough as nails. What puts it into the sport category is the fact that "anything doesn't go" and that the end goal is to win a championship.

    Best,
    Tim Black
    Tim Black
    Kokusai Shinjinbukan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy.G.B.
    Hi Zach:

    I would agree with your categorization of NHB martial arts as sport, and not to say that those guys aren't tough as nails. What puts it into the sport category is the fact that "anything doesn't go" and that the end goal is to win a championship.

    Best,
    Tim Black
    Yeah just hoping no one gets upset about that characterization as (if I remember right) I did that years ago on e-budo and got a few "oh yeah, prove it's just a sport" posts from NHB guys. Anyway, there's so much thats different about training for those 2 categories, I think it's a valid way to put it.
    Zachariah Zinn

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    I concur.


    I think the general consensus is simply that if the main emphasis is teaching a system of fighting or kata designed to win in competitions rather than individual combat, it can be labeled as "sport karate".
    -John Oberle-
    Personal martial arts site:http://bujutsublogger.blogspot.com/

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    Anytthing that focuses, on sport training and competiton, instead of real life applications, and the mental/spiritual development of the individual practicioner.

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    Default sport karate etc.

    Just to keep the thread going:

    I now tend to not think highly of the kind of sparring I did at my first dojo, it was done with medium, sometimes hard contact wearing gear, it had some valuable aspects, almost like light koshiki sparring. At the same time I think it can develop habits that while good for this sort of atmosphere, are maybe not the best thing in a self defense sense. The one time I had to actually use my skills they were adequate but definitely there was more hesitation than what (hopefully) would happen were I forced to use them today, for me this type of protracted sparring built in habits i've had to since wean myself from. There's no simulating real brutality in my opinion; it comes as a shock no matter what, the best you can do is train with an eye towards that I suppose. So i guess my definition isn't just about whether you're going for some kind of competitive reward, but also in training methodology itself. Again, i'm not looking down on it, but I don't think the 'sport' type training has as much self defense relevance until you get to a VERY high contact level (like the first few UFC's before they went down the crapper), and even then the level of preparation and anticipation puts in a different arena.
    Last edited by ZachZinn; 26th July 2005 at 08:28.
    Zachariah Zinn

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    Default Touchy subject

    Hi Zachariah:

    It can be a touchy subject to get into I agree. I also used to spar with fairly heavy contact (i.e. no one ever got knocked out but we certainly felt it the next day) and I only realized how my sparring habits made me vulnerable once I started training in my current dojo.

    No one likes to think that what they do makes them vulnerable, but I have come to the point where I want to know everything I am doing that makes me vulnerable. That way I can change it!!

    I really enjoyed my time sparring with my club mates and I enjoyed the tournament aspect somewhat. It was fun like any game that is competitive and I certainly learned some valuable lessons about balance and the fact that I can take a good shot to the floating ribs and stay standing. I simply had to give it up in order to "unlearn" my habits as you mentioned.

    It has been a slow progression and I hope that most of my sparring habits have now left me. I went from feeling invulnerable in my sparring days to feeling very vulnerable when I first met my teacher, to now feeling somewhat less vulnerable but still vigilant about not opening myself up when I train.

    Best,
    Tim
    Tim Black
    Kokusai Shinjinbukan

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    One of the better ways to develop some of the really nasty techniques from the kata, like some of the jion techniques against the legs and knees, the heian godan groin rip, and so on, is in one step sparring. If you try them during unregulated kumite, the uncertainty and chaos will either mean that you can only tentatively apply them, without any touch with reality, or that they get applied too hard. If you do that, you can lose your uke, and with some of the knee techniques, it's going to require surgery and years of rehab. Done with very hard attacks and very strong resistance, you can learn how to apply the techniques in onestep sparring, or maybe two or three.

    I currently have a few problems with full-on kumite. It can teach you some useful things, but the level of control I have to exert means it can't be full-on. I have trained a bunch of the knee-ripping, grabbing the leg and throwing, non-timing sweeping, etc, until they're reflex, and when someone throws a technique that sets me up for those in full-on kumite I often have to check that reflex to avoid injuring my partner, which means that I tend to hesitate at times because my body's saying rip and my mind's saying NO!!! I'm currently trying to find a more moderate response or at least find a way to get rid of the flinch, but I'm worried that if I do that, I'll train the really street-useful stuff out of my reflexes.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    One of the better ways to develop some of the really nasty techniques from the kata, like some of the jion techniques against the legs and knees, the heian godan groin rip, and so on, is in one step sparring. If you try them during unregulated kumite, the uncertainty and chaos will either mean that you can only tentatively apply them, without any touch with reality, or that they get applied too hard. If you do that, you can lose your uke, and with some of the knee techniques, it's going to require surgery and years of rehab. Done with very hard attacks and very strong resistance, you can learn how to apply the techniques in onestep sparring, or maybe two or three.

    I currently have a few problems with full-on kumite. It can teach you some useful things, but the level of control I have to exert means it can't be full-on. I have trained a bunch of the knee-ripping, grabbing the leg and throwing, non-timing sweeping, etc, until they're reflex, and when someone throws a technique that sets me up for those in full-on kumite I often have to check that reflex to avoid injuring my partner, which means that I tend to hesitate at times because my body's saying rip and my mind's saying NO!!! I'm currently trying to find a more moderate response or at least find a way to get rid of the flinch, but I'm worried that if I do that, I'll train the really street-useful stuff out of my reflexes.

    We use the Shorei-kan Goju ryu bunkai 2 man drills (Toguchi's I think), and my instructor has a set of 'ippon kumite' that come from his kata applications which are quite good, they were kind of intimidating at first, feel alot more 'real' to me than the type of sparring I did. Basically the type of techniques you're describing are what is involved, so your uke has to be prepared to breakfall etc, and you cant do them the way you would in a 'real' situation, but again, aside from going and getting in fights (not something I wanna do lol) I've come to the conclusion there really is no way to directly simulate the intensity of an actualy altercation. I try to get myself in that type of mental space when appropriate while still maintaining enough control to not let either of us get hurt. Definitely we still go home with bruises and such though Personally I think the 'fear factor' would be enough in a real fight to not hold back, at least for someone like me who doesn't like to fight. Hopefully i'm right heh.
    Zachariah Zinn

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    If you want to directly simulate a real fight, then you have to set up a situation where only one of you's walking away. If you want to show up for work the next week, this isn't a good option, and the long-term injuries aren't good either.

    If you want to learn fighting, you have to approximate it in several different ways. This allows the various skills to be developed singly and in combination.

    One way that we do this is light kumite, where one person is attacking, but not full-bore, and the other is allowed one class of response, like shoving. Allows development of those skills by disallowing others. If you just throw down, you'll always be using those skills at which you are best, and never develop the ones that need work.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZachZinn
    We use the Shorei-kan Goju ryu bunkai 2 man drills (Toguchi's I think), and my instructor has a set of 'ippon kumite' that come from his kata applications which are quite good, they were kind of intimidating at first, feel alot more 'real' to me than the type of sparring I did. Basically the type of techniques you're describing are what is involved, so your uke has to be prepared to breakfall etc, and you cant do them the way you would in a 'real' situation,
    We use exactly this. Then we open it up a bit further and do sequences of moves with different variations. This allows us to capture the negotiation that leads into the technique that we're applying, and the follow-ups to that technique. There are usually a bunch of lead-in sequences, and a bunch of possible follow-ups, selection of which depends on how the body breaks down when we apply the technique that we're practicing.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    1) If you want to directly simulate a real fight, A)then you have to set up a situation where only one of you's walking away. If you want to show up for work the next week, this isn't a good option, and the long-term injuries aren't good either.
    2) One way that we do this is light kumite, where one person is attacking, but not full-bore, and the other is allowed one class of response, like shoving.
    3) Allows development of those skills by disallowing others. If you just throw down, you'll always be using those skills at which you are best, and never develop the ones that need work.
    1) Simulating a real fight and a real fight are two different things. It is possible to set up scenarios and use protective equipment to simulate a real situation(s).
    I did this all the time with the MP’s and CID units I taught as part of their training. It worked fine and nobody got seriously injured.
    A) So when you say “only one of you's walking away” are you suggesting that you only train to kill or maim someone?

    Trevor,
    How much experience have you had training other people in for these kinds of “real fight” situations?

    2) Light kumite is fine for beginning students, however as one progresses controlled contact should be made in order to get the person used to getting bumped around a bit. I have commented about the use of full contact kumite somewhere on E-Budo before. I think it’s under a thread called “Bogu kumite bla, bla, bla”
    3) Again, that’s fine for beginners but it also makes the attack too predictable and other techniques should be thrown in as the person becomes used to the drill.

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