Legitimacy etc.

[ZachZinn]

I wasn't sure if I should post this is the ethics/philosophy forum or here, sorry.

I just came back to e-budo recently, and for some amusement I thought i'd look through the baffling budo/bad budo threads, looking at these I was reminded of questions of the concept of legitimacy in teaching Okinawan Karate. I don't mean simple questions of lineage, ryu, etc. but the overall question of 'authenticity' in what is being taught. I am not sure what the pioneers of karate wanted their art to become when exported to other cultures, or whether this was even as intentional as most books i've read on the subject suggest.

I remember the term 'shuhari' suggested in a few books (don't remember which offhand, sorry i'm no scholar) as a general principle of 'correct adaption' for lack of a better term. Does anyone have a concise definition of this or is it simply not a concise concept? In general it seems like there are 3 broad categories of opinion on this 1) people who think they should synthesize what the learned and develop 'their own' art, 2) people who think the style is degraded the farther away from it's source, and 3) people who think teaching 'what they were taught' will adequately preserve the essence of these arts.

I strongly disagree with camp number one, as the art is dinstinctly 'Okinawan' on some abstract level, and ceases to be when you change it's name and cultural references. While camp number two seems plausable to some degree, it also means that many people with never be able to learn 'real Karate', due to geography if nothing else. Camp number three is a nice thought, but the fact is the teacher cannot teach the art exactly as it was taught to him, people arent dictation machines. When this is attempted it seems to simply become mechanical regurgitation of ideas, thus losing the very essence we were trying to preserve. none of the concepts, which I realize are generalizations; are satisfactory answers to me.

I realize no one genuinely can answer this question, but there are people here who have been practising these arts for a long time, and maybe have had similar questions. I'd like to know what they think on the subject. One of the nice things about e-budo is that we now have an environment to actually discuss these questions, however contreversial they may be. Thanks.

-Zach

[Trevor Johnson]

I recall that being three separate words myself, Shu, Ha, and Ri.


Now, if you'll be tolerant, I'll advance my personal views on the subject.

My personal view of karate is that it has to become yours. This means investing in it by studying the history, studying the aesthetics, understanding the older culture it came from, and then working that back into the understanding of the art.
If you are trying to understand the art, you look to the past first, and to the art's descendents as living links before you look forwards or try to make something up completely out of thin air.
First, imitate and study until you understand the part of the art you're working on, and understand that some of this will be going on all your life. Do this for years. THEN start to analyze on your own, once you've immersed yourself in as much of the culture as you can. This should help keep you from making those egregious mistakes in "modernizing" your karate.
By the time you teach people something, you should not be in imitative stage any more. If all you can do is repeat the words your teacher said, even if you have an excellent memory, you're lost. You need to be able to find your own words and ways to express the concepts he passed down. You also need to be able to adapt your karate from your teachers'. (If you've seen the Shotokan Kanku-dai, you will know the extremely high outward blocks right at the start. Funakoshi did this because he was a little guy, and his students never changed it back to reflect their increased height. )

[Troll Basher]

Shu:
Kata is the educational core of all traditional Okinawan schools and their teachings. Therefore Shu must be used to keep the teachings as they were intended. Shu means practicing the kata and techniques as they were shown to you without inputting your own twists on them. At higher levels of training the teacher will introduce bunkai and Shu will help in the application and understanding of bunkai and the ura (hidden meanings of kata movements). Of course it goes without saying that this will happen only if your teacher is aware of them.

Ha:

At this point the student is guided by his teacher and given a chance to consider “adaptation” to already learned techniques. The teacher should encourage intuitive skills that that the student can “adapt” technique along the guidelines of the style or school.
What this means if a student is doing the technique correctly according to the “text book” and decides that if the attacker does XXXX then he do the basic technique prescribed by the style/school and will adjust it if BBBBB happens or if AAAAA happens…..
The kata bunkai should still be recognizable.

Ri:

Is the blending of the Shu and Ha when you can do technique and adapt it “on the fly” without thought.
Some people have described this as coming up with your own system or style. It does NOT mean this in any sense.

[Troll Basher]

1) This means investing in it by studying the history, studying the aesthetics, understanding the older culture it came from, and then working that back into the understanding of the art.

First, imitate and study until you understand the part of the art you're working on, and understand that some of this will be going on all your life. Do this for years.
2) THEN start to analyze on your own, once you've immersed yourself in as much of the culture as you can. This should help keep you from making those egregious mistakes in "modernizing" your karate.
By the time you teach people something, you should not be in imitative stage any more. If all you can do is repeat the words your teacher said, even if you have an excellent memory, you're lost. You need to be able to find your own words and ways to express the concepts he passed down. You also need to be able to adapt your karate from your teachers'.
3) (If you've seen the Shotokan Kanku-dai, you will know the extremely high outward blocks right at the start. Funakoshi did this because he was a little guy, and his students never changed it back to reflect their increased height. )

1) Can you expand on this a bit? I know why I study the history and so on but I am curious how it helps you.
2) Analyzing on your own is OK, but to truly understand what is being taught you need a teacher that has “gone there, done that”. Also, what do you mean by “immersing yourself in the culture”? Can you explain how that will help?
3) Umm….actually doing that technique with the hands held high is fine. Funakoshi’s height, or should I say lack of, had nothing to do with making the hands that high it’s actually the correct way to perform the bunkai.

[ZachZinn]

Thanks for the replies, both very informative. Also, what is the Shorin name for Kanku dai, if there is one, just so I can place the technique possibly.

[Timothy.G.B.]

Hi Zach:

The Shorin name for Kanku is Kusanku. We have both Kusanku Sho and Kusanku Dai in our school.

Trevor, which two Funakoshi high blocks at the beginning of Kusanku are you talking about? Got a photo?

Best,
Tim

[Timothy.G.B.]

Zach:

The question of legitimacy is one that, as you have said, will likely never be resolved, mostly because it is a somewhat subjective thing to determine and there is no agreed upon criteria.

Even on Okinawa there are teachers who feel that most of the karate done there is not traditional Okinawan karate but sports karate.

I prefer to let the question of legitimacy be resolved in one on one comparisons of techniques. When you sit down to talk with someone about their karate you find out instantly what they know and what they don't know. Then you can make your own decisions on the legitimacy of what they do.

It is as simple as asking someone to make a fist. How someone closes their hands into a fist tells me one of three things about their karate and in particular their makiwara training:

(WARNING: This next part may sound cocky or arrogant in the typewritten word but it is not certainly not meant to be. Rather it is based solely on my limited experience.)

1) They know how to make a proper fist and are more likely to know how to hit the makiwara properly.
2) They don't know how to make a proper fist and are unlikely to know how to hit the makiwara properly
3) They know how to make a proper fist and they don't want me to know that they know how to make a proper fist and I will never know if they can hit a makiwara properly unless I spend the time getting to know them

So far, my sense is that everyone I have met falls into category number 2. There are other signs besides the fist that lead me to this conclusion.

It may seem like a small thing, but then much of the karate I am learning is about the small things...and some other things too

My bottom line is this: If anything I am being told to do doesn't make sense, seems silly, or puts me at risk of being hurt by another person, this reduces the legitimacy of what is being taught in my mind.

I have sought out some Okinawan teachers here in Canada to see what they are teaching and just sitting in on one full class has shown me all I need to know in every case so far. For better or worse

Best,
Tim

[Troll Basher]

Hi Zach:

Trevor, which two Funakoshi high blocks at the beginning of Kusanku are you talking about? Got a photo?

Best,
Tim

Maybe this one???

[Troll Basher]

or maybe this one..........

[Trevor Johnson]

Hi Zach:

The Shorin name for Kanku is Kusanku. We have both Kusanku Sho and Kusanku Dai in our school.

Trevor, which two Funakoshi high blocks at the beginning of Kusanku are you talking about? Got a photo?

Best,
Tim

Sorry, I'm packing at the moment, so if I have one, it's probably in a box. I think Harry's got one in A Precise History. If not, he's sure to have one somewhere. This is not the move at the start of the kata, the whole viewing the sky thing, this is the two outward blocks, which would normally be fist at shoulder height. Funakoshi did them high 'cause he was a little guy. My teacher or one of his friends asked, hmm, Nishiyama or Nakayama, one of the N-names, why they were done elbow at shoulder height. He replied that it was because Funakoshi did it that way 'cause he was a little guy, and if he wanted to block the rest of us, he had to. I'll see if I can get a little more clarification, in my copious spare time. (changing states, starting grad school, looking for another dojo, etc, doesn't leave me much. )

As I recall, Kanku-dai was the crown jewel of Funakoshi's karate. Think he demonstrated it in front of the emperor. Interesting thing about that is that most of the Japanese koryu kata are relatively short, compared. Intense, but far shorter. The ones I've seen demonstrated were 5 moves. (because they couldn't have 4. The fifth was a flashy one tacked on at the end for luck, basically. The person who gave this explanation was Ellis Amdur, October of 2001. He was teaching a kusarigama kata to his deshi and showing us how he did it. )

[Timothy.G.B.]

Agreed with Robert.

The height of Funakoshi's hands has nothing to do with his height.

Best,
Tim

[Trevor Johnson]

Zach:

The question of legitimacy is one that, as you have said, will likely never be resolved, mostly because it is a somewhat subjective thing to determine and there is no agreed upon criteria.

It's a lot simpler in the koryu, because you can just consult the Japanese legal records. In Okinawa, it's largely oral tradition, and I personally don't trust oral tradition. I've played the telephone game too often. I don't question the legitimacy of the art, just the lineages. This is also partly because of the many cultures that met in Okinawa. Largely China and Japan, but also pirates like the Boegies, Southeastern asian countries, etc. Japan was much more isolated. Okinawa got most of it from China, but Japan and the other countries in the area had to have had an influence, and they had their own homegrown art as well, that they added the Chinese stuff to. Add that to families and schools who trained with each other, learned from each other at least to some extent, and you have a degree of messy chaos that I rather like. Much like science, actually.

It is as simple as asking someone to make a fist. How someone closes their hands into a fist tells me one of three things about their karate and in particular their makiwara training:

(WARNING: This next part may sound cocky or arrogant in the typewritten word but it is not certainly not meant to be. Rather it is based solely on my limited experience.)

1) They know how to make a proper fist and are more likely to know how to hit the makiwara properly.
2) They don't know how to make a proper fist and are unlikely to know how to hit the makiwara properly
3) They know how to make a proper fist and they don't want me to know that they know how to make a proper fist and I will never know if they can hit a makiwara properly unless I spend the time getting to know them

So far, my sense is that everyone I have met falls into category number 2. There are other signs besides the fist that lead me to this conclusion.

It may seem like a small thing, but then much of the karate I am learning is about the small things...and some other things too

I like the fist test. I'll look at it. Of course, if it's a well-established dojo and they don't have a makiwara at all, or have one of those wall-mounted things, I may not even bother. We have three. One's in storage, a heavy 4x4 with a cast-iron base. (moving dojos, no room atm. ) The other two are in my teacher's backyard. We've broken the 4x4 and the heavier of the backyard ones, in the past.

You might also look for chiishi, kongoken, iron geta or ankle weights, and if possible a wing chun dummy. If they use any of those, and properly, good. Body conditioning is one of the things the Okinawans do better than most, I think. The tools that they use are good at strengthening the motions that they need for fighting.

After a certain level, it's all in the small things.

My bottom line is this: If anything I am being told to do doesn't make sense, seems silly, or puts me at risk of being hurt by another person, this reduces the legitimacy of what is being taught in my mind.

Amen.

[Troll Basher]

1) This is not the move at the start of the kata, the whole viewing the sky thing, this is the two outward blocks, which would normally be fist at shoulder height. Funakoshi did them high 'cause he was a little guy.
2) My teacher or one of his friends asked, hmm, Nishiyama or Nakayama, one of the N-names, why they were done elbow at shoulder height.
3) He replied that it was because Funakoshi did it that way 'cause he was a little guy, and if he wanted to block the rest of us, he had to.

1) So are you suggesting that two blocks came after the photos I posted?
2) I met Nakayama back in the 80’s….he was a moron.
3) Doesn’t make sense that he would do the. Why would he block a punch or strike above his own head? Answer….he wouldn’t because it would hit anyway.

Agreed with Robert.

The height of Funakoshi's hands has nothing to do with his height.

Best,
Tim

For the reasons I stated in #3 above or some other reason?

[Troll Basher]

1) It's a lot simpler in the koryu, because you can just consult the Japanese legal records.
2) In Okinawa, it's largely oral tradition, and I personally don't trust oral tradition. I've played the telephone game too often. I don't question the legitimacy of the art, just the lineages. This is also partly because of the many cultures that met in Okinawa.
3) Largely China and Japan, but also pirates like the Boegies, Southeastern asian countries, etc.
4) Japan was much more isolated.
5) …….. but Japan and the other countries in the area had to have had an influence…….
6) Add that to families and schools who trained with each other, learned from each other at least to some extent, and you have a degree of messy chaos that I rather like. Much like science, actually.

1) “Legal records”??? What legal records??
2) And yet you are the same person that refuses to given any supporting documentation in your posts. How ironic.
3) Do you have anything to support this?
4) Was? Contrary to popular legend Japan has never been that isolated. Even when Japan was a “closed country” the Dutch and Portuguese still did a thriving business in the port of Nagasaki. Japan has gotten most of it’s “culture” from 2 places….Korea and China.
5) Really? In what way?
6) Which families? Which schools?

[Timothy.G.B.]

Trevor:

The idea of blocking high because one is short is a strange logic to me and how I train. My head is only as high as my head, there is nothing above my head that I need to protect.

Besides, he could lower his body if other people were too tall, making it even harder for them to hit him. Or he could move his feet (use tenshin) and go irikumi (inside fighting) negating the height issue. Why open himself up by doing an extra high block?

It just doesn't make sense to me considering some of these other pieces.

Best,
Tim