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Thread: Shotokan groups

  1. #31
    Troll Basher Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by hectokan
    1) Are you sure that's your main interest in this?.If your really that interested look up his older senior students in japan(you live there) and find out.
    2) That would be the best way to research something like this,since reading things simply off the net is not so reliable.
    1) Why of course.
    2) I might call them. Websites are not always so bad.


    Here is some interesting reading I came across on one of the kenkojuku websites:

    1948, The kenkokai Karate-bu change it's name to the Kenkojuku Dojo. The Kenkojuku Budokan was established at the present location in Minamimachi Hachioji-shi.
    1949, On May 27th, students headed by Master Masatoshi Nakayama formed the Japan Karate Association (JKA), naming Master Funakoshi as the Technical adviser.
    1955, On November 30th, Master Funakoshi and his first and second son visited the Kenkojuku Dojo for a special ceremony.
    So let’s see…..in 1949 the JKA was formed and Funakoshi is the head technical advisor of it……Okano is still Funakoshi’s student. Funakoshi is part of the JKA so it would seem logical that his students would also be since they are under him.

  2. #32
    Bustillo, A. Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Basher
    1) Why of course.
    2) I might call them. Websites are not always so bad.


    Here is some interesting reading I came across on one of the kenkojuku websites:


    So let’s see…..in 1949 the JKA was formed and Funakoshi is the head technical advisor of it……Okano is still Funakoshi’s student. Funakoshi is part of the JKA so it would seem logical that his students would also be since they are under him.
    Robert,

    Here I think you are stretching things a bit or reaching too far. JKA is considered Nakayama brand Shotokan. Okano's kenkojuku is not. JKA and kenkojuku influences, and emphasis, were different.

  3. #33
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    [QUOTE=Troll Basher


    So let’s see…..in 1949 the JKA was formed and Funakoshi is the head technical advisor of it……Okano is still Funakoshi’s student. Funakoshi is part of the JKA so it would seem logical that his students would also be since they are under him.[/QUOTE]



    Yes,last time I checked somebody can be a head technical advisor for different groups.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

  4. #34
    Bustillo, A. Guest

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    Precise History of Karate by Harry Cook page 144.

    It specifically states that after the war T. Okano did not want to follow any of the other instructors therefore concentrating his efforts on his own Kenkojuku group which he had originally started in 1942.

  5. #35
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    I recently obtained some footage of a number of Kenkojuku kata - clearly they are Shotokan, but equally clearly they are not JKA. There are differences in timing, technique, emphasis etc which mark the Okano approach as different from the JKA as clearly as say the Shotokai.
    Actually I think that Funakoshi was little more than a figurehead in the JKA - Nakayama was the real mover and shaker.
    Harry Cook

  6. #36
    Tommy_P Guest

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    I recently had the chance to look at a copy of "Karate-Do Kyohan" that was said to be a copy of an old version. It was written in Japanese and had many interesting photos including many of Funakoshi performing and explaining applications. Another interesting point was the photos of Funakoshi at the Kenkojuku Dojo as well as Okano training at the Shotokan.
    (There was also photos of Mas Oyama at the Shotokan)

    Kenkojuku was the name of the school not the style. It was the Kenkojuku Shotokan Dojo. It may have Okano's influence the same as any instructor may add their "flavor" to their teaching but it's Shotokan pretty much intact.
    Okano studied mainly with Yoshitaka from what I understand. Yoshitaka's influence can be seen by the use of Fudo dachi in kata in place of stances such as Hangetsu dachi as well as the addition of Fudo in other kata.

    I believe the kata are just a bit older versions than the JKA versions and they haven't been altered by Nakayama. Some differences, which may not be differences at all but rather just unmodified, are the lack of the super tension that goes on with JKA technique (kime). Kenkojuku punches through rather than tensing. Also a little more flow to the kata rather than the more stacato movements of Nakayama's karate. All in all it's the same. Kenkojuku uses an older version of Chinte as well as using Niseshi rather than Nijushiho. Niseshi was learned from a student of Mabuni who was a personal friend of Okano while the Nijushiho version was said to be learned from Mabuni by Nakayama. The Chinte used in Kenkojuku is said to have been an old version brought from Okinawa by Yoshitaka. I think Kenkojuku was a closer to the original version of Shotokan than Nakayama's brand.

    This has been my understanding but there's not much out there about this branch of Shotokan.

    Tommy

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bustillo, A.
    Robert,

    1) Here I think you are stretching things a bit or reaching too far. JKA is considered Nakayama brand Shotokan. Okano's kenkojuku is not.
    2) JKA and kenkojuku influences, and emphasis, were different.
    1) I didn’t make it up. I am just reading what is written and thinking it could be possible that Okano was originally part of the JKA and possibly left later.
    2) Having seen old footage of JKA and seen new footage of JKA I can say their emphasis were different even within the same organization.

    Quote Originally Posted by hectokan
    Yes,last time I checked somebody can be a head technical advisor for different groups.
    So when he was advising Nakayama’s group he would tell them to do a kata one and when he advised Okano’s he would tell them to do the same kata differently? You would think a technical advisor would be advising the same way for the same kata no matter where he is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Cook
    I recently obtained some footage of a number of Kenkojuku kata - clearly they are Shotokan, but equally clearly they are not JKA. There are differences in timing, technique, emphasis etc which mark the Okano approach as different from the JKA as clearly as say the Shotokai.
    Actually I think that Funakoshi was little more than a figurehead in the JKA - Nakayama was the real mover and shaker.
    Harry Cook

    No doubt Nakayama was the guy behind the JKA.

    Are you familiar with the group (the guys in the photo graphs) that has published the English version of karate do nyumon and kyohan? I am just wondering how they fit in as well. They do stuff that is really weird.

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    The Shotokai had the rights to publish Funakoshi's works, almost certainly through their connections to Hironishi and the Funakoshi family.
    I think that while Funakoshi was alive then in a very general sense all the various Shotokan groups saw their karate as related, and as therefore fundamentally 'the same'.
    Once Funakoshi was gone the technical differences allied to personality clashes pushed the groups into divergent lines, hence the development of modern Shotokai under Egami (and later sub-systems under Aoki) and the JKA under Nakayama.
    Groups such as the Kenkojuku and Isao Obata's group had already started to develop their own approach.
    I get the feeling that Funakoshi wasn't too bothered by the physical diiferences in technique and methods among his followers, as his main thrust seems to have been on the development of their personalities.
    Harry Cook

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    I get the feeling that Funakoshi wasn't too bothered by the physical diiferences in technique and methods among his followers, as his main thrust seems to have been on the development of their personalities.
    Harry Cook[/QUOTE]



    Mr Cook,

    That's an excellent point because contrary to common shotokan belief, Funakoshi's okinanwan karate was probably not the cookie cutter mentality that most came to associate shotokan for becoming after Funakoshi death.

    He probably had the old okinawan trait of lettting his people interpret kata in their own way like they use to do before,when personal creativity within the kata was seen as normal according to one's own size and height.
    Last edited by hectokan; 8th August 2005 at 23:37.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

  10. #40
    Troll Basher Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Cook
    1) I get the feeling that Funakoshi wasn't too bothered by the physical diiferences in technique and methods among his followers, as his main thrust seems to have been on the development of their personalities.
    Harry Cook
    1) Can you give some specific examples of what has given you that impression?


    Quote Originally Posted by hectokan
    Mr Cook,

    1) That's an excellent point because contrary to common shotokan belief, Funakoshi's okinanwan karate was probably not the cookie cutter mentality that most came to associate shotokan for becoming after Funakoshi death.
    2) He probably had the old okinawan trait of lettting his people interpret kata in their own way like they use to do before,when personal creativity within the kata was seen as normal according to one's own size and height.
    1) I disagree. I think he was the first “cookie cutter” in shotokan. There are even several photo graphs of him floating around that show him teaching in the typical Japanese way.
    From what I have read by Funakoshi and about him he seemed as though he would put his stamp on anything that would get the Japanese to accept and expand karate. This would include adopting a judo-esque gi along with the belt system……something that never existed in Okinawa when he was training.
    Basically I get the impression Funakoshi was a better butt polisher than he was a karateka.
    2) No offense but I would like to see something that corroborates this was a common way of teaching in Okinawa. From what I understand from talking with old Okinawan karateka the old way was to guide the student into discovering the correct way to interpret kata…..not just let them think anything they come up with is the right way. Old karateka didn’t hand out techniques they way people do now. There were no videos you could buy and people didn’t “dojo hop” that much. From what I have heard the teacher got to know you and if he liked you then he trained you, which is contrary to the way it is today were the student is actually a customer and is basically spoon fed. Before if you were taken on as a student then you would be guided and encouraged then the student would be given specific things to think about in a kata and had to try to understand what the technique was.

  11. #41
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    Quoted by troll basher,
    1) I disagree. I think he was the first “cookie cutter” in shotokan. There are even several photo graphs of him floating around that show him teaching in the typical Japanese way.



    Ofcourse he had to adapt somewhat he was trying to get karate accepted into the mainstream culture,you should be thankful if anything


    Quoted by troll basher,
    From what I have read by Funakoshi and about him he seemed as though he would put his stamp on anything that would get the Japanese to accept and expand karate. This would include adopting a judo-esque gi along with the belt system……something that never existed in Okinawa when he was training.



    so why have you along with almost all"okinawans" accepted the judo-esque gi system today?


    Quoted by troll basher,
    2) No offense but I would like to see something that corroborates this was a common way of teaching in Okinawa. From what I understand from talking with old Okinawan karateka the old way was to guide the student into discovering the correct way to interpret kata…..not just let them think anything they come up with is the right way. Old karateka didn’t hand out techniques they way people do now. There were no videos you could buy and people didn’t “dojo hop” that much. From what I have heard the teacher got to know you and if he liked you then he trained you, which is contrary to the way it is today were the student is actually a customer and is basically spoon fed. Before if you were taken on as a student then you would be guided and encouraged then the student would be given specific things to think about in a kata and had to try to understand what the technique was.[/QUOTE]

    bro chill out......what's with all the Japanese hate all the time?have you been to all the dojos in Japan? Do you know how they teach all the time?I doubt that every single dojo in Japan except yours is a bonafide mcdojo.If so move to okinawa drop the judo gi system and please don't funnel anymore funakoshi paved yen.
    Last edited by hectokan; 9th August 2005 at 11:08.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

  12. #42
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    Hello,

    because it was never the intention of G. Funakoshi to establish his own ryu, and the multitude of his followers, I believe he never proceeded against technical deviations, provided that these deviations did not contradict his basic ideology. However, by changing the name of his "Dai Nippon Karatedo Kenkyukai" to "Dai Nippon Karatedo Shotokai" in 1936 and the construction of the Shotokan Dojo a few years later, he was able to free himself from all the opinions of his senior students and could make his personal technical point of view more clear, at least for the disciples of this dojo.

    The persons in the English edition "Karatedo Nyumon" are performing an interpretation of S. Egami's method and I am sure, that the original photographs look quite different. For example, the makiwara pictures do not show a makiwara at all. Perhapes Mr. Cook is able to present one or two of the original photographs.

    Regards,

    Henning Wittwer

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by hectokan

    1) bro chill out......what's with all the Japanese hate all the time?
    2) have you been to all the dojos in Japan? Do you know how they teach all the time?
    3) I doubt that every single dojo in Japan except yours is a bonafide mcdojo.
    4) If so move to okinawa drop the judo gi system and please don't funnel anymore funakoshi paved yen.
    1) I am not sure where that came from….care to explain? As far as I can tell I made no reference to disliking Japan or Japanese.
    2) I was a judge for the JKF, I have been to many, many dojo in Japan in various styles.
    3) Like some of your pals when you can’t really post anything credible you make snide comments. Grow up.
    4) Same as 3

    So my comment/question to you was: No offense but I would like to see something that corroborates this was a common way of teaching in Okinawa.

    Do you have any?
    I base my posts on my first hand expieinces of almost 20 years with Japanese/Okinawan people, culture and martial arts then you make comments like this: He probably had the old okinawan trait of lettting his people interpret kata in their own way like they use to do before,when personal creativity within the kata was seen as normal according to one's own size and height.

    I disagree.
    So I am wondering what you base that opinion on….

  14. #44
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    Quoted by Hector,
    He probably had the old okinawan trait of lettting his people interpret kata in their own way like they use to do before,when personal creativity within the kata was seen as normal according to one's own size and height.

    Quoted by Robert,
    I disagree.
    So I am wondering what you base that opinion on….


    Reply,

    It's simple really,the war and the militaristic Japanese pride associated with it at the time had a profound impact on the way karate was taught and practiced in Japan.Funakoshi was a humble okinawan man representing okinawan karate but he was caught in the middle of all this fury and nationalistic passion which was going on at the time.

    This militaristic passion caried over into the universities were most(but not all) of Funakoshi students trained.It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out were the militaristic "everyone needs to look the same cookie cutter syndrome" developed.

    Okinawa karate was usually not taught to the large masses,so room for "SLIGHT"personal interpretation between instructor and student exchanged freely.It had a more personalized instructor/student atmosphere associated with it,with that came acceptance of differences not in the kata per se but in it's very 'SLIGHT" interpretations.There was none of that with some of the later Funakoshi students.
    Last edited by hectokan; 9th August 2005 at 13:30.
    Hector Gomez
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  15. #45
    Bustillo, A. Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Basher
    1) I didn’t make it up. I am just reading what is written and thinking it could be possible that Okano was originally part of the JKA and possibly left later. .
    H. Cook writes.
    ...hence the development of modern Shotokai under Egami (and later sub-systems under Aoki) and the JKA under Nakayama.
    Groups such as the Kenkojuku and Isao Obata's group had already started to develop their own approach.
    Harry Cook

    -----------------------------------------
    Troll Basher / R.R. writes
    Funakoshi and about him he seemed as though he would put his stamp on anything that would get the Japanese to accept and expand karate.
    1.)This would include adopting a judo-esque gi along with the belt system……something that never existed in Okinawa when he was training.
    2.)
    Basically I get the impression Funakoshi was a better butt polisher than he was a karateka.
    ----------------------------------------------


    A. B. writes.
    2.) And you dare call others trolls, silly and immature...(had they said that about Oyata you'd flip) Either way, you are not making much of a point here.

    Evidently, a lot of Okinawans liked Funakoshi's idea --or did they love having their butt polished-- because everyone including the Okinawans are wearing the gi and they use the belt ranking system.
    Last edited by Bustillo, A.; 9th August 2005 at 13:45.

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