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Thread: Shotokan groups

  1. #46
    Troll Basher Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bustillo, A.

    1 ) And you dare call others trolls, silly and immature...
    You are not making much of a point here.
    2) Evidently, a lot of Okinawans liked Funakoshi's idea
    or did they love having their butt polished-- because everyone including the Okinawams are wearing the gi and they use the belt ranking system.
    1) No bustillo. I am merely giving an opinion based on what I have experienced in this country and read about funakoshi…either written by him or from others that knew him. You and your pal on the other hand have thrown out several insults directed my way on this thread.
    2) I never said gi and belts were a bad idea. My statement was made to reinforce that funakoshi borrowed a lot of training idea from Japanese.

    Aaah and yet again in this thread, like another thread, you try to bring my teachers name into to get some sort of reaction. :roleyes:

  2. #47
    Troll Basher Guest

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    Just incase you missed my question I ask it again.

    1) I am not sure where that came from….care to explain? As far as I can tell I made no reference to disliking Japan or Japanese.

    So my comment/question to you was: No offense but I would like to see something that corroborates this was a common way of teaching in Okinawa.

    Do you have anything that can?

  3. #48
    Bustillo, A. Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Basher
    1) You and your pal on the other hand have thrown out several insults directed my way on this thread.
    . Aaah and yet again in this thread, like another thread, you try to bring my teachers name into to get some sort of reaction. :roleyes:
    Negative, there have been no insults thrown at you. Please stop playing the victim. If the mere mention of Oyata is a problem, then there's a problem.. because it was not to get a reaction .

    Regasrdless, no problem, we can get back to issue.

    So I see you agree that the gi and rank that according to your opinion of Funakoshi being a butt polisher, and him adopting it wasn't a bad idea.
    Good.

  4. #49
    Troll Basher Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bustillo, A.
    1) Negative, there have been no insults thrown at you.
    2) If the mere mention of Oyata is a problem, then there's a problem.. because it was not to get a reaction .
    3) Regasrdless, no problem, we can get back to issue.
    4) So I see you agree that the gi and rank that according to your opinion of Funakoshi being a butt plosher and him adopting it wasn't a bad idea.
    Good.
    1) Re-read the thread bustillo
    2) Feel free to mention him. In fact you made a whole thread on him on 09-04-2002, at 08:16 AM.
    3) If you like.
    4) The gi yes, the ranks I really don’t care for. Seems rank has too many problems connected to it….no meaning and too many have egos associated with rank.

    As for funakoshi being a butt polisher……yes I think he was. I read several articles on him in Japanese and some comments he made about other karateka at the time. The guy was a major league trash talker…..not to mention the teller of some pretty tall tales.

  5. #50
    Bustillo, A. Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Basher
    1) Re-read the thread bustillo
    2) Feel free to mention him. In fact you made a whole thread on him on 09-04-2002, at 08:16 AM.

    4As for funakoshi being a butt polisher……yes I think he was. I read several articles on him in Japanese and some comments he made about other karateka at the time. The guy was a major league trash talker…..not to mention the teller of some pretty tall tales.
    1.) Three years ago, big deal,-- was he off limits-- ...you're still living in in the past? Robert, this is 2005.

    4.) Wonderful but he wouldn't be the only karateka.

    Either way, this wasn't the original issue. All this originally started when you lumped in most of the differnet shotokan groups as merely being break-offs of JKA. Which is not the case.
    I pointed out kenkojuku wasn't JKA influened, you argued that it was, and then Hector G., Harry Cook and T. Pressimore also gave examples pointing out why it isn't JKA, Nakayama brand shotokan .

    If you still don't see it then there's not much point in debating that particular point anymore.
    .

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by hectokan
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Cook
    I get the feeling that Funakoshi wasn't too bothered by the physical diiferences in technique and methods among his followers, as his main thrust seems to have been on the development of their personalities.
    Harry Cook


    Mr Cook,

    That's an excellent point because contrary to common shotokan belief, Funakoshi's okinanwan karate was probably not the cookie cutter mentality that most came to associate shotokan for becoming after Funakoshi death.

    He probably had the old okinawan trait of lettting his people interpret kata in their own way like they use to do before,when personal creativity within the kata was seen as normal according to one's own size and height.
    Nakayama's comment is that the reason that the two blocks in Kanku-dai shown here on the second line are so high is that Funakoshi was a little guy and modified them to suit his body. I've so far had two separate confirmations of this story... Interesting thought, given the changes the JKA made in the kata to suit themselves.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  7. #52
    Troll Basher Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bustillo, A.
    1.) Three years ago, big deal,-- was he off limits-- ...you're still living in in the past? Robert, this is 2005.

    2) Wonderful but he wouldn't be the only karateka.
    3) All this originally started when you lumped in most of the differnet shotokan groups as merely being break-offs of JKA. Which is not the case.
    4) I pointed out kenkojuku wasn't JKA influened, you argued that it was, and then Hector G., Harry Cook and T. Pressimore also gave examples pointing out why it isn't JKA, Nakayama brand shotokan .

    If you still don't see it then there's not much point in debating that particular point anymore.
    .
    1) Nope, not living in the past. Just supporting my point about how you behave.
    2) Well he is that main karateka we are discussing here so it’s relevant.
    3) No, actually all this started when you decided to pick issue with my word choice.
    4) And I pointed out based on what I had read that it just might be possible.

  8. #53
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    About Funakoshi's attitudes re variations.
    It is fairly well known that there was some strong differences of opinion etc between H. Ohtsuka (founder of Wado Ryu) and Funakoshi's other followers and associates, and there was definitely problems between those that founded the JKA and those that founded the Shotokai, but Funakoshi did not break off contacts with any of the people who were associated with him. For example Ohtsuka featured in Kyohan doing sword defences etc, and this is the time when according to some Ohtuska was in the process of setting up his own style.
    Harry Cook

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    Default additional arts

    Can we add Kyokushinkai,Judo(atemi waza),Tang Soo Do,Taekwondo,Iki Shindo and Taira's Kobudo.

    Cam Briggs

  10. #55
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    Hello,

    I believe it would be rather difficult for a Kyokushin adept to view his style as a branch of G. Funakoshi's school.

    Although there are atemi in Judo, I do not think that karate influenced these techniques too much, because we know old schools of Jujutsu, like Yagyu Shingan Ryu, which use striking and kicking extensively.

    Since Tang Soo Do uses forms (kata) of G. Funakoshi, it could be viewed as kind of an off-split.

    I never came across the term "Iki Shindo". Could You give some more informations about it?

    Regards,

    Henning Wittwer

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gibukai
    Since Tang Soo Do uses forms (kata) of G. Funakoshi, it could be viewed as kind of an off-split.

    I'm not sure that I'd view TSD as a split-off from Funakoshi'd karate, but more of a descendant. From what I've read, the founder of TSD found some of Funakoshi's books in a train station in China, and that's where he got those kata. I don't believe that he trained in Japan, though I of course could easily be wrong. The founder of TKD did, in some old photos of him you can see the Japanese on his belt.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  12. #57
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    Hello,

    Wonkuk Lee, who started to teach Tang Soo Do in Seoul, Korea in 1944, learnt karate from G. Funakoshi in Tokyo. Modern histories on Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo are claiming more often than not, that these arts are of Korean origin. But that is political propaganda. Korean teachers of karate called their systems kongsu (karate) or tangsu (toudi) in the beginning, only to change it for nationalistic reasons later on. There is an interesting document on this subject by Hyosong Ga (unfortunately in German).

    Later developments and negation of the Japanese roots of tang soo do are veiling the fact that it is kind of a Shotokan splitt-off.

    Regards,

    Henning Wittwer

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gibukai
    Hello,

    Wonkuk Lee, who started to teach Tang Soo Do in Seoul, Korea in 1944, learnt karate from G. Funakoshi in Tokyo. Modern histories on Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo are claiming more often than not, that these arts are of Korean origin. But that is political propaganda. Korean teachers of karate called their systems kongsu (karate) or tangsu (toudi) in the beginning, only to change it for nationalistic reasons later on. There is an interesting document on this subject by Hyosong Ga (unfortunately in German).

    Later developments and negation of the Japanese roots of tang soo do are veiling the fact that it is kind of a Shotokan splitt-off.

    Regards,

    Henning Wittwer
    Very unfortunately in German.
    I recall an article by a TSD blackbelt. It was in blackbelt, so it may be worth regarding with a grain of salt. He was disappointed at the made-up histories of TSD, and glad that the founder had finally come out with the real story, which is where he mentioned the train station and the karate manuals that the founder found.
    I don't subscribe to black belt, but I may have that issue somewhere in my library. I'll have to see if I can find it. We kept that issue around for a while because of the article.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    For documentation of who's who, consider taking a look at Eric Madis's article, "The Evolution of Taekwondo from Japanese Karate," in "Martial Arts in the Modern World," 2003. It's in English, and includes a bibliography. It's available in hardback only, so it's kind of expensive, but on the other hand, it's from an academic publisher, so you can always try talking your local library into buying a copy.The Amazon.com link is http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846 .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Svinth
    For documentation of who's who, consider taking a look at Eric Madis's article, "The Evolution of Taekwondo from Japanese Karate," in "Martial Arts in the Modern World," 2003. It's in English, and includes a bibliography. It's available in hardback only, so it's kind of expensive, but on the other hand, it's from an academic publisher, so you can always try talking your local library into buying a copy.The Amazon.com link is http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846 .
    Thanks, I'll check for it!
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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