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Thread: Shotokan groups

  1. #61
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    Smile A few comments

    I've just read this whole thread and enjoyed it quite a bit. Can see some important names and posters from our small forum too.

    Despite the sidetracks and Trollbasher's unusual language (what does "butt polisher" actually mean... sounds a bit crass), I think there is quite a bit of information here. I'd like to contribute with a few extra points, please correct me if I am wrong.

    I'd like to mention Isao Obata's group: Zen Nihon Gakusei Karate-do Renmei, they separated during the chaotic period after the creation of the JKA. I'd also like to add that Sodo Kawanabe who was head instructor at the Shotokan dojo (Shotokai Hombu) during a short period in the 50's (I think 56 to 58) also separated and established a group initially called Shotokai Kawanabe and now is called Kenjirio Kawanabe Karate-do which is unlike what people call Shotokan and also quite different from what people normally consider Shotokai.

    Kind regards

    Mogens Gallardo
    Shotokai Karate Budo
    http://www.shotokai.com

  2. #62
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    Hello,

    would it be correct to say that the Gakusei Renmei separated from the JKA? I think no, since its predecessor, the "Dai Nippon Gakusei Karatedo Renmei" (Great Japan Students Karate Federation), was founded as early as 1935.

    Could you give some more informations about S. Kawanabe?

    Regards,

    Henning Wittwer

  3. #63
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    Default Will look for more info

    Regarding Obata's group, though you may be right, I do know Obata was one of the founding masters in the JKA and held the post of chairman until he and the other were replaced by Takushoku men. The info I had, from a Steve Cattel article in Swedish is that he and his group separated from the JKA when the whole thing became too commercial. I have an interview somewhere of Master Obata, I'll try to find it and see if it has any additional info. - I found the interview, it's from Blackbelt magazine 1972, by Richard L. Blair and it states: "Those were busy years, 1948 to 1957, as the master and his protege bent themselves to the task of establishing karate as a strong respected art in Japan. Together they formed the Japan Karate Association, only to drop out a few years later when that organization became too commercial. The Japan Students Karate Association, however, on which they both worked, proved a fresh and vital group."

    Regarding Master Kawanabe, I know he lives today, he recently established a new dojo somewhere in Tokyo. Some members of Shotokai Karate Budo went by to visit him and train. Kawanabe is from what I recall, contemporary to T. Ohshima. I'll try to obtain some more info and post it here.

    Kind regards

    Mogens
    Last edited by mgallard; 31st August 2005 at 14:53. Reason: adding info
    Shotokai Karate Budo
    http://www.shotokai.com

  4. #64
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    Mr. Kawanabe is Mr. Lenchus' instructor, IIRC?

    Rob

    Quote Originally Posted by mgallard

    Regarding Master Kawanabe, I know he lives today, he recently established a new dojo somewhere in Tokyo. Some members of Shotokai Karate Budo went by to visit him and train. Kawanabe is from what I recall, contemporary to T. Ohshima. I'll try to obtain some more info and post it here.

    Kind regards

    Mogens

  5. #65
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    Default Don't know

    Regarding Mr. Lenchus, I don't know, I'm sure there are lots of people who have trained with him, the question is for how long and when, as Master Kawanabe's karate has evolved quite a bit over time.

    The info I have regarding Kawanabe Sensei is the following:

    Waseda University graduate. Studied karate at Waseda from 1950 to 1954, for four of those years together with his fellow trainees Tsutomu Ohshima and Mitsusuke Harada. He was captain of the Waseda Karate Club in 1954, one year after Tsutomu Ohshima. Was a direct student of Master Gichin Funakoshi and assistant of Master Shigeru Egami until 1958. In 1958 he founded the Shotokai Kawanabe Dojo in Atsugi, Japan. He received his Shihan title from Master Yoichiro Inoue. He currently has established a dojo elsewhere and continues to give instruction in Tokyo.

    Master Kawanabe's karate seems to be very relaxed with very short movements and a strong final contraction, high positions, which make the style very unlike current Shotokai.

    He as well as Mitsusuke Harada sensei seem to have followed their own interpretation of Karate-do and are not followers of Master Shigeru Egami's technical framework.

    That's all for now.

    Mogens
    Shotokai Karate Budo
    http://www.shotokai.com

  6. #66
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    Hello,

    I found K. Kawanabe within a chronicle of the Waseda Karate Club, where he is listed as OB of 1954, exactly one year after T. Oshima (as you wrote).

    Regards,

    Henning Wittwer

  7. #67
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    Default :-)

    I'm not completely misinformed then (and not that big of a liar ;-)).

    What about Obata's group actually separating from the JKA, any comments on that? I provided info that seem to indicate they did separate. Remember that the JKA was created with the intention of aglutinating the different karate groups (history would shows it did exactly the contrary, but that's another story), so it wouldn't be strange to have a prior formed group becoming officially part of the JKA.

    Mogens
    Shotokai Karate Budo
    http://www.shotokai.com

  8. #68
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    Hello,

    "Dai Nippon Gakusei Karatedo Renmei" was founded in 1935, when I. Obata lived in China (he moved to China in 1932 and moved back to Japan in 1945). Therefore I would not say that the Gakusei Renmei was "I. Obata's group". In around 1950 it was reorganized as "Zen Nihon Gakusei Karatedo Renmei" and now he became an important board member of it. This association was for example in charge of organizing kokan-geiko (friendly exchange trainings) between University clubs.

    Besides the Gakusei Renmei, I. Obata was involved in some other associations also and most importantly acted as senior teacher at the Keio Karate Club.

    Regards,

    Henning Wittwer

  9. #69
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    Default

    What about Nishiyama's groups ITKF or AAKF?

  10. #70
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    Hello,

    I had to hesitate a little bit, because this is a muddled subject. Anyway, although only loosely connected, I would say the group of H. Nishiyama (ITKF) belongs to the JKA.

    The latest edition of the JKA homepage lists H. Nishiyama as "Technical Advisor" and independent member. On the other hand, there are the (sometimes huge) technical differences between todays JKA and the style of H. Nishiyama.

    Regards,

    Henning Wittwer

  11. #71
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    Default Technical differences not critical

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibukai
    Hello,

    I had to hesitate a little bit, because this is a muddled subject. Anyway, although only loosely connected, I would say the group of H. Nishiyama (ITKF) belongs to the JKA.

    The latest edition of the JKA homepage lists H. Nishiyama as "Technical Advisor" and independent member. On the other hand, there are the (sometimes huge) technical differences between todays JKA and the style of H. Nishiyama.

    Regards,

    Henning Wittwer
    I understand ITKF no longer belongs to the JKA though Mr. Nishiyama was a JKA pioneer in the US. Mr. Mori of NYC, my instructor, has just as big a gap in his technical perferences with present day JKA as Mr. Nishiyama, but he is definitely JKA. These guys trained in the 1950s and have been away from the changes made by the JKA for going on 50 years, so the differences are understandable and do not define membership. Further, many of the current top instructors have their own interpretations of technique within the JKA.

    M

  12. #72
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    Default

    I understand ITKF no longer belongs to the JKA
    Margret, can you give us some more information on this? I just checked both the English and Japanese versions of the JKA sites and they list Nishiyama on them as currently JKA.
    Thanks in advance,

    Andrew
    Andrew Smallacombe

    Aikido Kenshinkai

    JKA Tokorozawa

    Now trotting over a bridge near you!

  13. #73
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    Default Not listed as a branch

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew S
    Margret, can you give us some more information on this? I just checked both the English and Japanese versions of the JKA sites and they list Nishiyama on them as currently JKA.
    Thanks in advance,

    Andrew
    Andrew,
    The JKA website lists Nishiyama sensei as Technical Advisor. However, if you look at the listing of official branches of the JKA and go to the Pan America list, you will find that the US is represented only by Mori sensei and Okazaki sensei. The branch listing names the official reps for the JKA.

    I think his position as Technical Advisor means Nishiyama sensei's parting from the JKA was reasonably amicable. But he is not listed in a active way as "director" (Mr. Mori) or "vice chairman" (Mr. Okazaki)

    M

  14. #74
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    Hello,

    I understand ITKF no longer belongs to the JKA
    When I trained in the US my instructor and our school were originally under Nishiyama sensei and we were members of the ITKF.

    We later learned that although Nishiyama sensei was personally a member of the JKA, the ITKF itself did not have a JKA charter from the hombu and so the organization as a whole and the individual dojos were not recongized as officially being part of the JKA. This had not been made clear to us previously and we believed that we were directly affiliated with the JKA in Japan.

    As our school wanted to remain aligned with Japan, and despite having a lot of repect for Nishiyama sensei, the decision was made to leave the ITKF and intead join the ISKF under Okazaki sensei.

    All of this took place more than 15 years ago. I later left the US and trained at the hombu here in Tokyo for several years.

    It has really been disheartening to see all of the political maneuvering (both in Japan and abroad) and the setting up of subsidiary organizations in other countries. It was particularly heart breaking to see what happened to Enoeda sensei's highest ranking students and the KUBG. I honestly don't think any of it has been for the benefit of karate.

    Sincerely,

    Ron Beaubien

  15. #75
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    Mr. Beaubien,

    thank you for clearing-up this matter.

    Regards,

    Henning Wittwer

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