Zanshin

[kakuma]

"literally 'alertness remaining-form': this term signifies physical form united with mental acuity and concentration, resulting in uninterrupted dominance over the adversary. There could be no effective fighting skill without it. Zanshin was the undeniable mark of the expert technician; it could not be faked. It was the result of countless hours of experience in combative training and was expressed through physical posture. Through zanshin the bushi achieved the proper mental and physical attitude with which to dominate his adversary."


In most Japanese settings zanshin is translated loosely as awareness. However, the defination above is more appropriate in it's literal meaning.

I find this discussion interesting. Having never heard of zanshin in Japanese Budo reffered to as a group of set of techniques or tactics. But it gave me a great insight to certain things in my own training. Before now I would have agreed with eelcurbs last post.

In Kukishinden Ryu there are techniques that I can see that rely on this particular concept. When I was in Japan in April this was our emphasis of study and Manaka Sensei used the term in a specific kata as checking his tactics (zanshin) and then moving in for the final waza.

I found this term strange at the time. But, due to reviewing this discussion it makes perfect sense. Therefore, I can see both sides.

[Etch]

I find this discussion interesting. Having never heard of zanshin in Japanese Budo reffered to as a group of set of techniques or tactics. But it gave me a great insight to certain things in my own training. Before now I would have agreed with eelcurbs last post.

I found this term strange at the time. But, due to reviewing this discussion it makes perfect sense. Therefore, I can see both sides.

Hi Dale,

I'm glad you have found this conversation of interest to you. In my personal understanding of zanshin, it does not actually refer to a set of specific tactics that could be classified as "zanshin tactics", but instead it refers to a state of conciousness that can be maintained for varying lengths of time and at varying intensities. This state of conciousness certainly informs us of a sort of "efficiency of movement", in order to minimize our openings while maximizing our control of the opponent, but I would not think of zanshin as a skill that we can practice or utilize independently of our budo practice. Just as zanshin manifests itself through our budo techniques, our techniques are the vehicle through which we learn and refine our zanshin.

Best Regards,
Etch

[Trevor Johnson]

I don't necessarily think of it as tactics, it is a state of mind.

What I was more trying to get at is that there are:
A. various methods of training it, and
B. Certain tactical mindsets it can be connected to. If you connect it to a balls-to-the-wall assault attitude, when triggered, you'll go for them. If you connect it to a passive attitude, of registering the threat and taking time to think about it, you may find yourself overwhelmed by sudden threat. If you connect it to a defensive attitude, which I prefer, you'll prepare for a slowly emerging threat and evaluate it, possibly do something about it, but a sudden threat you place first priority on defending yourself.

This defense mindset is useful, btw. I had a friend who showed very lousy zanshin, being zoned on computer games. His aunt walked up, and covered his eyes to go "guess who?" He broke her wrist. He automatically went into an aggressive mindset when startled. This, imho, is something I want to avoid. Getting away or blocking while taking time to assess the threat is a better idea for a civilian like me. Using awareness and threat assessment to prevent an attack altogether is, in my opinion, even better.

[kakuma]

In my personal understanding of zanshin, it does not actually refer to a set of specific tactics that could be classified as "zanshin tactics", but instead it refers to a state of conciousness that can be maintained for varying lengths of time and at varying intensities.

I agree with this concept whole heartedly. Most martial artist never gain this concept of zanshin. Most concepts of zanshin are very shallow and until now never really explained or studied. (Obviously this is not the case with you Etch). Thus my extreme interest in this particaular thread, especially for Aikido.

Though I practice in a different art the concepts of this particular part of training, I believe is essential to not just win or lose, but in life or death.

This state of conciousness certainly informs us of a sort of "efficiency of movement", in order to minimize our openings while maximizing our control of the opponent

This is a concept or principle we practice to obtain through our training as well. Manaka Sensei in my recent visits has really opened my eyes towards this understanding. Though not explained to me in words perse, he has described this through his teaching and our obtaining mastery of techniques and it's application.

but I would not think of zanshin as a skill that we can practice or utilize independently of our budo practice.

I somewhat disagree with this statement. Let me explain why. As an active student of budo, zanshin should be a practice in everyday life. Not just in the dojo. It should not only be awareness in confontations, but an ability to respond or be aware before, during and after a confrontation. (Of course I may have misinterprated your response, if so please feel free to elaborate). I agree however, that zanshin cannot be learned independantly unless it has been introduced through budo training.

To cite an example police officers that do not actively train in martial arts fall extremely short of this understanding they are told this in there academy training but they never practice to it's fulness in real life application. After training some of them they are amazed as to how much this concept is lacking in their academy training. Please be aware this is just my perspective.

Using awareness and threat assessment to prevent an attack altogether is, in my opinion, even better

Agreed.

[Etch]

Most martial artist never gain this concept of zanshin. Most concepts of zanshin are very shallow and until now never really explained or studied.

I don't know if I would say most martial artists never gain an understanding of zanshin, that seems like maybe an overgeneralization. I would say that the vast majority of martial artists are hobbyists, and thus many may not even be concerned with such concepts. It's a shame that there isn't more info readily available on the topic of zanshin, but if you know where to look, there is some good information out there.

This is a concept or principle we practice to obtain through our training as well. Manaka Sensei in my recent visits has really opened my eyes towards this understanding. Though not explained to me in words perse, he has described this through his teaching and our obtaining mastery of techniques and it's application.

You are fortunate to have a teacher who can convey this through training.

I somewhat disagree with this statement. Let me explain why. As an active student of budo, zanshin should be a practice in everyday life. Not just in the dojo. It should not only be awareness in confontations, but an ability to respond or be aware before, during and after a confrontation. (Of course I may have misinterprated your response, if so please feel free to elaborate). I agree however, that zanshin cannot be learned independantly unless it has been introduced through budo training.

I think I understand what you are describing, and awareness at all times is certainly a virtue. Personally, I limit my definition of zanshin to exist within the context of budo technique-- before, during and after. I would consider general awareness at other times (driving, eating, playing video games) as simply "awareness".

Considering that the most common definition of zanshin-- "remaining mind/spirit" implies that zanshin is maintained after the completion of some action, is our idea of what zanshin is and when zanshin is maintained too broad? Is a motorcyclist on a busy freeway maintaining zanshin? Is a runningback avoiding a series of tackles exhibiting zanshin? I don't think so, which is why I restrict my understanding of zanshin as I do in the above paragraph.

I guess the most important thing, is for budoka to be aware of the concept, so that through practice, they can develop their own understanding of zanshin.

Best Regards,
Etch

[tony leith]

Hi folks

First off, let me explain that I am not an aikidoka - I'm a 2nd dan in Shorinjikempo. I did however find your discussion interesting, and wanted to chip in from my slightly different perspective. Zanshin is INMHO probably about the most important thing students can take away from a martial art in terms of self defence, as applying it 'on the street' will hopefully prevent them getting into fights in the first place.


This from Etch caught my eye

Conversely, I'd say this awareness is not being practiced when you see someone complete a pin, then just stand up and walk around (or over!) uke, who can just reach out and grab their legs. Another example would be the uke who gets pinned, then tries to get up before nage has moved out of range, and gets knocked back down.

I try to enforce this awareness on students, both after applying juho waza (our 'soft' techniques) and goho (Shorinjikempo's active system). I almost get tired of saying that the execution of set pair form in attack/ defence is not over until uke has gained a safe distance from the attacker, or delivered a decisive finishing atemi (and then gained a safe distance from the attacker, just to be on the safe side). It is only by continually drilling this awareness that it becomes second nature.

I think this is one respect in which the traditional etiquette associated with budo can be helpful, in creating a disciplined and orderly training environment. I tell students that they can't regard themselves as 'safe' until they've made gassho rei (our equivalent of a training bow) to their partner. If they then want to debrief/talk to their partner, that's fine. Until then, they should think of themselves as being in a live self defence situation.

Shorinjikempo also incorporate ren hen ko (don't know if this is a term used in aikido, literally means 'bit on the end') on set form techniques to encourage an awareness that the initial counterattack may not suffice to end a situation. This should be improvised, and again this helps to keep attacker and defender sharp. I was once training under Mizuno Sensei, a very senior instructor, and clobbered my partner when he prolonged the pause before initiating ren hen ko once too often. I then felt a tremor in the force, and became aware Sensei was standing right behind me. 'I'm in trouble' I thought, whereupon Sensei laughed and cheerfully said to my partner "You're dead', and "keep doing that" to me.

And, also from Etch

Which makes me wonder, is there some level at which you can maintain zanshin constantly, and if so, can it be done in a manner that has no physically observable signs? The answer to that question leads me to another, is it better (from a self defense standpoint) to project an aura of complete awareness and calm readiness, or is it better to "lay low" and appear as unthreatening as possible? My feeling is that it depends on the environment, but the former is probably safest in most situations.

Depends on the cirumstances and your reading of the other's intentions. If you think he/she has violent intent and the readiness to carry it out, if they're within striking distance the fight's already on. In those circumstances, calm readiness suggesting as much latent threat as possible can put potential attackers off their stride - it's worked for me more than once (though obviously will make **** all difference to some, but they'll probably have hit you already).

Tony Leith

[kakuma]

Etch, I find your responses to be very insightful. Assuming that you have several years of experience in martial arts, I believe that your understanding of zanshin is very profound.

In refence to this comment...

Is a motorcyclist on a busy freeway maintaining zanshin? Is a runningback avoiding a series of tackles exhibiting zanshin? I don't think so, which is why I restrict my understanding of zanshin as I do in the above paragraph.

I believe that these are all examples of zanshin, IMHO. In an earlier post I referred to zanshin as being not just win or lose but also life or death. This is just not limited to a personal perspective in dojo discipline or etiquette.

Here is a reference fom an article that was given from the Tsuki Kage Dojo FAQ. (Please refer to link provided by Todd Lambert on pg. 2 of this thread)

There are many contributing factors to effective zanshin that must be considered, but on a fundamental level, zanshin can be broken down to four basic types:

1. Everyday interaction and conduct
2. The type that should occur prior to a conflict
3. The type that should be happening during a conflict
4. The type that should remain immediately after the adept believes they have resolved a conflict

I believe this BASIC principle of zanshin needs to be understood in and outside of the dojo.

Please bear in mind this is only my opinion. I believe that restricting your understanding of zanshin is restricting or limiting your budo. We must expand from just dojo zanshin to life zanshin. Reason.... you are probably not likely to use your budo in life or death in the dojo, though that is why we train. Therefore, zanshin outside of the dojo is more needed than that in the dojo.

[tony leith]

Re. Kakuma's comment about whether exhibiting awareness in non combat/non training situations, I'd say that there is a danger of splitting semantic hairs. You could square this particular circle by saying these things can certainly represent an apllication of awareness gained through cultivating zanshin.

I for example am in the ordinary course of events - ahem - not the most graceful of people. Clumsy might be the word that springs to mind. Unhappily then, the greater control I have learned through martial arts has not yet extended to all aspects of my existence.

At the same time, once when I was waiting to cross a road in London, I suddenly and without conscious volition pulled my head back. A van wing mirror then whipped past my nose, and through the space that my head had been occupying an instant earlier. I can't help that think that training, and training in zanshin helped me to be much more 'aware' than I would have been otherwise (though 'aware' is perhaps the wrong choice of word given that no conscious thought was involved)

Tony Leith

[kakuma]

Agreed Tony.

I believe that what you described concerning the mirror incident is what is commonly called "Mushin" or what we call "Munen Muso" not necessarily zanshin.

I have several stories that deal with that issue. But that would be another thread.

[Etch]

Etch, I find your responses to be very insightful. Assuming that you have several years of experience in martial arts, I believe that your understanding of zanshin is very profound.

Dale,

Thank you for saying so, but I'll be the first to admit that I don't have a vast reserve of on the mat experience-- in fact, I'm only 3rd kyu. I started studying aikido back in 1992 (in Lubbock, coincidentally), but due to military service and other obligations since then, I've only been able to accumulate about 4 or 5 years worth of actual training time.

I believe this BASIC principle of zanshin needs to be understood in and outside of the dojo.

Please bear in mind this is only my opinion. I believe that restricting your understanding of zanshin is restricting or limiting your budo. We must expand from just dojo zanshin to life zanshin. Reason.... you are probably not likely to use your budo in life or death in the dojo, though that is why we train. Therefore, zanshin outside of the dojo is more needed than that in the dojo.

No worries, all of my thoughts only amount to opinions as well. I agree with you that zanshin, both in and out of the dojo, is certainly a subject worhty of further consideration.

Best Regards,
Etch

[Etch]

Hi folks
First off, let me explain that I am not an aikidoka - I'm a 2nd dan in Shorinjikempo. I did however find your discussion interesting, and wanted to chip in from my slightly different perspective. Zanshin is INMHO probably about the most important thing students can take away from a martial art in terms of self defence, as applying it 'on the street' will hopefully prevent them getting into fights in the first place.

Hey Tony, I'm glad you found this topic of interest, and welcome a non-aikido perspective. I recognize your name from the Shorinjikempo forums, where I tend to roam when things are slow here in the aikido forums, lol. In my opinion as well, zanshin is one of the most important self-defense assets you develop in the study of budo.

I think this is one respect in which the traditional etiquette associated with budo can be helpful, in creating a disciplined and orderly training environment.

I have to agree with you. This is a good way to explain to beginners why we do certain things the way we do in a traditional dojo. It makes a lot more sense than "thats just what we do" or "it's just tradition."

Shorinjikempo also incorporate ren hen ko (don't know if this is a term used in aikido, literally means 'bit on the end') on set form techniques to encourage an awareness that the initial counterattack may not suffice to end a situation.

I'm not familiar with the term you used, but I am familiar with the improvised "bit on the end" to "finish" the attacker if there appears to be the need to do so. If we are talking about the same thing, in most of the dojo where I've studied it's not done on every technique. It seems to be done almost exclusively on pins rather than throws, and its done so infrequently that it appears to be spontaneous. I hardly ever do it myself-- I tend to focus on securing an effective pin and subduing the attacker without having to strike them.

Depends on the cirumstances and your reading of the other's intentions. If you think he/she has violent intent and the readiness to carry it out, if they're within striking distance the fight's already on. In those circumstances, calm readiness suggesting as much latent threat as possible can put potential attackers off their stride - it's worked for me more than once (though obviously will make **** all difference to some, but they'll probably have hit you already).

My thinking matches yours in that the circumstances dictate what you reveal. I don't remember this as something that was explicitly taught to me, but it has also seemed to prevent me from being attacked on more than one occasion, despite the fact that the would be attackers had already cocked their fist or made as if to rush at me.

It makes me wonder if people can actually sense that someone has the capacity for swift violence (I mean this in the kinetic sense, not moral sense). Around the time when I was in the Air Force, I went through this weird phase where I was constantly making myself aware of peoples openings, in the way they sat, stood, walked, etc, and was constantly mindful of my own. During that time we had a new flight doctor come into our squadron one day to give a safety briefing (101 critical days of summer or something like that), and as I watched him move to the podium to begin speaking, I felt as if there were an "unsafe" zone around him that you wouldn't want to be in, and I felt compelled to keep my eye on him. I know that sounds absurd in the safety of a squadron auditorium, but if I were a mugger, I wouldn't have picked this guy for a target-- even though he was a couple of inches shorter than me and the same weight. Unlike most of the other people I worked with, he just seemed completely balanced, and moved in a way so that I didn't see how he could be easily attacked. All I had done was watch him walk across the room. I noticed that he had a japanese first name on his flightsuit nametag, although at a glance he appeared to be caucasian. On a hunch, I later asked him if he practiced any martial arts, and to no great surprise, he was a Judo yudansha and had been practicing since childhood.

I had another similar experience with a squadron commander, it was something about his manner of deliberate movement that caught my eye. When I asked him about his martial arts experience, he told me that during or shortly after college, he had studied aikido for a while before his AF committments precluded his training. Anybody else have a similar experience, or was this perhaps just coincidence? I don't recall ever having asked somebody if they had practiced a martial art before on this type of hunch and having been told "no". Conversely, I have been asked by people I didn't know if I studied "Kung Fu", lol.

Best Regards,
Etch

[kakuma]

Actually Etch, all of what you have described are zanshin.

[tony leith]

From Etch, referring to 'ren hen ko' in Shorinjikempo

I'm not familiar with the term you used, but I am familiar with the improvised "bit on the end" to "finish" the attacker if there appears to be the need to do so. If we are talking about the same thing, in most of the dojo where I've studied it's not done on every technique. It seems to be done almost exclusively on pins rather than throws, and its done so infrequently that it appears to be spontaneous. I hardly ever do it myself-- I tend to focus on securing an effective pin and subduing the attacker without having to strike them.

In the Shorinjikempo context, 'ren hen ko' isn't usually applied after pinning an attacker - typically this is resolved by delivering an incapacitating atemi while they're still under control. 'Ren hen ko' is more usually a feature of our training when practising 'goho' (our 'active system') - after an initial evasion/counterattack, rather than just assuming we've delivered a knockout blow, the emphasis is on using the disruption to the attacker's balance etc to press home the temporary advantage gained. Speed and multiple attacks to different targets are the key to effective ren hen ko rather than sheer power. We also teach and practice ren hen ko as an integral element of eluding techniques, where you simply free yourself from an attacker's hold (and then sensibly enough hit them before they hit you..)

It makes me wonder if people can actually sense that someone has the capacity for swift violence (I mean this in the kinetic sense, not moral sense). Around the time when I was in the Air Force, I went through this weird phase where I was constantly making myself aware of peoples openings, in the way they sat, stood, walked, etc, and was constantly mindful of my own.

I actually think it works either way - I think I can generally register if somebody is well trained or is just the sort of person who fights recreationally ( it would of course be a grave mistake to only worry about people with formal training in the martial arts). There are kinaesthetic cues we all pick up on, most of them probably going all the way back to primate dominance dynamics. As I said in an earlier post, if an aggressor fails to elicit fear as a response, this can put them off their stride.

If some intangible instinct is telling you somebody is not to be messed with, I'd always be inclined to go with the instinct. Similarly if somebody is prepared to stick a knife in you, letting them bring the knife out if you can hit them first would be a mistake. Reading the intention rather is more practical, and eminently more surviveable, than actually trying to fend off a blade.


Tony Leith