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Thread: Zanshin

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    Default Zanshin

    Hello All,

    I was curious, how much emphasis do most people place on the importance of zanshin? I try to always be cognizant of it at all times in my training, but I seldom hear it mentioned in the dojo. It was a big point of emphasis at one of my previous dojo, but even so, it often didn't appear that my partners were taking to heart what Sensei was advising-- sometimes they would just get up and turn around and walk away, absentmindedly adjusting the knot on their belt while I sprang back up and stood around waiting for them to
    turn around again and get into hanmi so I could attack them. So, is it that there is no clear consensus on what zanshin entails and of its importance? Or is it more of a possibility that it is not easy to gauge the level of someone's zanshin by their body language and posture?

    Best Regards,
    Etch
    Bernard B. Echiverri

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    Zanshin should be important in any dojo, imho, but it's up to the seniors to enforce it. In my own opinion, it should formally start when you walk into the dojo. (If you have zanshin always, even better, but that's a bit hard to enforce on whitebelts.)

    Mine are perfectly fine with swatting me if I lose zanshin, and it's a dojo practice to try to know where everyone is at all times, in other words, be mindful of those you train with. If a senior walks behind you, and you don't notice, you're up for a smack, force varying with your rank. We generally only reprimand those above 6th kyu with any physical force. Below that, they just aren't good enough yet.
    We train zanshin by other methods as well, including a circle exercise where one person's in the middle defending and the others surround them, and attack in sequence, with a prescribed attack or several choices. They are allowed to move around, and part of the fun is finding a way to let the person before you set you up for an attack to the target's shikaku(dead zone). If they don't see you coming, surprise!!! Since you don't know where the attacks are coming from, you have to develop a wide focus and a relaxed attitude so that you can deal with anything, as well as light feet to keep turning and maneuvering. It's considered perfectly fine for the target to move, as well, and see if he can get two attackers to run into each other, or get one to block the next.

    Zanshin training can be taken to extremes, mind you. Dave Lowry has written of the time his teacher attacked him in the bathroom, and then told him his koryu's way to go, with one leg out so you can fight. (We considered adopting this in the dojo, but there were some members who we couldn't attack in the bathroom, since we couldn't breathe, so we discarded the option. ) The mindfulness this engenders is nice, but the methods can be a bit over the top.

    You can tell zanshin by posture and body language, once you get good enough. Doesn't take long. If they are aware of people around them, not hyperfocused on one person unless the drill requires it, and relaxed enough to deal with whatever, good.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    Zanshin should be important in any dojo, imho, but it's up to the seniors to enforce it. In my own opinion, it should formally start when you walk into the dojo. (If you have zanshin always, even better, but that's a bit hard to enforce on whitebelts.)

    Mine are perfectly fine with swatting me if I lose zanshin, and it's a dojo practice to try to know where everyone is at all times, in other words, be mindful of those you train with. If a senior walks behind you, and you don't notice, you're up for a smack, force varying with your rank. We generally only reprimand those above 6th kyu with any physical force. Below that, they just aren't good enough yet.
    We train zanshin by other methods as well, including a circle exercise where one person's in the middle defending and the others surround them, and attack in sequence, with a prescribed attack or several choices. They are allowed to move around, and part of the fun is finding a way to let the person before you set you up for an attack to the target's shikaku(dead zone). If they don't see you coming, surprise!!! Since you don't know where the attacks are coming from, you have to develop a wide focus and a relaxed attitude so that you can deal with anything, as well as light feet to keep turning and maneuvering. It's considered perfectly fine for the target to move, as well, and see if he can get two attackers to run into each other, or get one to block the next.

    Zanshin training can be taken to extremes, mind you. Dave Lowry has written of the time his teacher attacked him in the bathroom, and then told him his koryu's way to go, with one leg out so you can fight. (We considered adopting this in the dojo, but there were some members who we couldn't attack in the bathroom, since we couldn't breathe, so we discarded the option. ) The mindfulness this engenders is nice, but the methods can be a bit over the top.

    You can tell zanshin by posture and body language, once you get good enough. Doesn't take long. If they are aware of people around them, not hyperfocused on one person unless the drill requires it, and relaxed enough to deal with whatever, good.


    what is your definition of the word "zanshin"?

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    Default wonderful quote

    I found this terrific quote from a teisho found on line:

    In the martial arts, Zanshin means having no break in our activity, because there is no time to take back a stride or block and fix it. It also means going beyond technique, because we cannot force the situation to conform to the technique. The angle of the strike and the force of the strike must be adjusted immediately to the energy of the partner.
    You can find the whole teisho here:

    Without Hesitation

    In answer to the posters question: I practice regularly at two dojos, and one emphasizes it very much while the other does not at all. One talks about it and practices it, the other practices it without discussion. I might read this wrong, but I see it as an awareness and a continuation where there is always a readiness at hand, rather like the technique never ends but continues on into the next, and the next, and the next. Certainly something to be strived for. Both dojos work at this but one has awareness expressed in words while the other does not. It is important in both dojos, just expressed differently.
    Rachel Massey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Etch
    I was curious, how much emphasis do most people place on the importance of zanshin? I try to always be cognizant of it at all times in my training, but I seldom hear it mentioned in the dojo.
    Yes. It's often neglected. I even got scolded once for maintaining ZANSHIN by someone who thought I should trust my partners.

    When my students lose attention, I attack them and knock them down. This often has to happen a couple of times before they finally catch on that they're responsible for keeping me at a distance with their attitude.

    In real life, this has kept me from being run into by inattentive pedestrians. It's also kept a glass of ice cold Pepsi from going down my back. Haven't had the drama of someone trying to off me in the John, though.
    Don J. Modesto
    Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
    ------------------------
    http://theaikidodojo.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by don
    Yes. It's often neglected. I even got scolded once for maintaining ZANSHIN by someone who thought I should trust my partners.

    When my students lose attention, I attack them and knock them down. This often has to happen a couple of times before they finally catch on that they're responsible for keeping me at a distance with their attitude.

    In real life, this has kept me from being run into by inattentive pedestrians. It's also kept a glass of ice cold Pepsi from going down my back. Haven't had the drama of someone trying to off me in the John, though.
    We tend to think of it as a continuing awareness of our surroundings, and of threats in the environment. It's not just in kata, that just has a specific way of showing it. It's supposed to be everywhere. I've had someone try to mug me when I was sick, exhausted, and in totally the wrong mood for a fight. When he noticed I'd seen him approach, he started to try to talk his way in, and my threat sensors are going off(rather muffled by the sneezing and coughing, but oh well) something fierce. I managed to keep him out of charging range by maneuver, all the while talking back and trying to let him think it was working. Mirroring his affect was a very useful tactic, as it let him think he was controlling me. As soon as I got near the door of my apartment, he realized he wasn't, but it was too late then. I walked in listening to his screams of "!!!! you, !!!! you, !!!! you!" thinking awww, did poor little baby want to mug me?

    I've had juniors whack me some fierce ones, and totally freak out, thinking they'd hurt me. They're standing there with their mouths open doing the usual "Oh, my God, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to...!" If they're really junior I just shrug it off and grin, say you need to hit harder. If they're a bit more senior I point out that they're SUPPOSED to be hurting me and if they lose awareness just by hitting me, then they need to work on that.
    If they're 5-3 kyu or higher, I just continue the exercise and attack again. If they can't handle the attack, they need to work on their zanshin, and not be so worried about me. If I'm on the ground unconscious or screaming in pain, they have permission to help me. Otherwise, just get back in position and be ready to continue.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    We tend to think of it as a continuing awareness of our surroundings, and of threats in the environment. It's not just in kata, that just has a specific way of showing it. It's supposed to be everywhere. I've had someone try to mug me when I was sick, exhausted, and in totally the wrong mood for a fight. When he noticed I'd seen him approach, he started to try to talk his way in, and my threat sensors are going off(rather muffled by the sneezing and coughing, but oh well) something fierce. I managed to keep him out of charging range by maneuver, all the while talking back and trying to let him think it was working. Mirroring his affect was a very useful tactic, as it let him think he was controlling me.
    1) As soon as I got near the door of my apartment, he realized he wasn't, but it was too late then. I walked in listening to his screams of "!!!! you, !!!! you, !!!! you!" thinking awww, did poor little baby want to mug me?

    I've had juniors whack me some fierce ones, and totally freak out, thinking they'd hurt me. They're standing there with their mouths open doing the usual "Oh, my God, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to...!" If they're really junior I just shrug it off and grin, say you need to hit harder.
    2) If they're a bit more senior I point out that they're SUPPOSED to be hurting me and if they lose awareness just by hitting me, then they need to work on that.
    If they're 5-3 kyu or higher, I just continue the exercise and attack again. If they can't handle the attack, they need to work on their zanshin, and not be so worried about me. If I'm on the ground unconscious or screaming in pain, they have permission to help me. Otherwise, just get back in position and be ready to continue.
    1) Yeah, and now “little baby mugger” knows where you live. Not very smart.
    2) Will the macho BS ever cease……..

    Trevor,
    Honestly speaking your way to practice zanshin is pretty whacked and borderlines on macho BS. Zanshin should be evident in your technique……By looking at the technique demonstration mpegs on your website it is obvious you are not practicing zanshin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Basher
    what is your definition of the word "zanshin"?
    Sorry for the delay in the response. My definition of zanshin, as taught to me by one of my sensei, would be "remaining mind". What he taught was to always be mindful of your surroundings, and aware of your partner's intention. This awareness typically can be observed (in my mind), by the way nage might finish a throw or pin, and at any moment be ready to re-engage their partner, or another attacker. Zanshin could also be maintained by uke, who after being pinned, does not stand up until they are clear of nage, and when they do get up, they do so quickly and in a balanced manner, while remaining ready to re-engage nage at any moment. In both cases, it seems that you can sometimes see the awareness of the other person, if they are maintaining it.

    Conversely, I'd say this awareness is not being practiced when you see someone complete a pin, then just stand up and walk around (or over!) uke, who can just reach out and grab their legs. Another example would be the uke who gets pinned, then tries to get up before nage has moved out of range, and gets knocked back down.

    Which makes me wonder, is there some level at which you can maintain zanshin constantly, and if so, can it be done in a manner that has no physically observable signs? The answer to that question leads me to another, is it better (from a self defense standpoint) to project an aura of complete awareness and calm readiness, or is it better to "lay low" and appear as unthreatening as possible? My feeling is that it depends on the environment, but the former is probably safest in most situations.

    Regards,
    Etch
    Bernard B. Echiverri

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    Quote Originally Posted by don
    I even got scolded once for maintaining ZANSHIN by someone who thought I should trust my partners.
    That's kind of odd. I trust my partners to not injure me when I attack them, I trust them to release a pin when I tap. I don't trust them to not attack me again, because in training that is their purpose.
    Quote Originally Posted by don
    When my students lose attention, I attack them and knock them down. This often has to happen a couple of times before they finally catch on that they're responsible for keeping me at a distance with their attitude.
    I've seen some of my sensei do that before, people usually laugh like the sensei were just clowning around, but I think there's an important lesson being learned there, and people should be paying attention.
    Quote Originally Posted by don
    Haven't had the drama of someone trying to off me in the John, though.
    Knock on wood.

    Regards,
    Etch
    Bernard B. Echiverri

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    Hey all. Beginning Aikido student here. I think this thread is interesting, it brings to mind a two-day seminar I recently attended. It was at my dojo, which has a small overall mat space that was packed with people. I thought the 'zanshin' concept really came into play because your awareness was definitely 'forced up a notch' so that you didn't get hurt or hurt anyone else. It also became clearly important in establishing your own space and spacing with uke/tori.

    Ever since the seminar I've tried to maintain that sort of constant awareness of my surroundings both on and off the mat... Some days are better than others.

    I wonder if others here have had such an experience of actually being forced by the surroundings to increase your awareness (and then to maintain it..)?

    With respect,
    Last edited by paul major; 8th August 2005 at 18:54. Reason: Signature thing
    Paul Major
    gokyu in Aikikai (Hombu) Aikido, under Rev. Furuya Sensei at the Aikido Center of Los Angeles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Etch
    Which makes me wonder, is there some level at which you can maintain zanshin constantly, and if so, can it be done in a manner that has no physically observable signs? The answer to that question leads me to another, is it better (from a self defense standpoint) to project an aura of complete awareness and calm readiness, or is it better to "lay low" and appear as unthreatening as possible? My feeling is that it depends on the environment, but the former is probably safest in most situations.

    Regards,
    Etch
    Personally, I like the awareness and calm readiness state, if you can keep it a CALM state.
    One of the things that you've got to come to grips with is your own weakness. You can't be perfectly armored at all times. I've seen some people who tried, and thought of zanshin as a perfect armored state, from which they could dominate all around them. They came off looking psychotic, because they were trying to find the threats around them and make those threats back down before they attacked. Problem with that is that not everyone who has the POTENTIAL to be a threat actually IS one. Those who were not thinking of threatening you now have an incentive to, because they see you giving them the evil eye. If you can keep it calm, and non-threatening, people will steer clear. Just don't be so hyper-focused that you look like you're LOOKING for a fight.


    I agree with you, btw, sometimes you are best served by being weak, by being ready for threat, but sucking it into yourself. If someone's looking to intimidate/harass you, and he's got friends, being calm and composed may not be the best way to go. Showing a little fear, letting him know he's won, may prevent him from trying to PROVE that he's won physically. As long as you walk away, who cares about your pride? You may have friends or a family who'd be fair game if you get into it with him. You're conditioned, they're not, so you take the threat onto yourself, because you've got the best chance of surviving it if they decide a beating is in order, without starting a fight that draws everyone else in. (Play-acting to make the beating seem worse than it is is also a good idea.)


    I should point out that this is "civilian" zanshin. I'm sure that for the military, being strong and dominating is a better idea. You have so many more toys to do it with, and so much more backup. Same for a cop. You have the power of the radio, which means that you're much stronger than a normal civilian, and being calm and in control of a situation is a much better option at all times.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    Personally, I like the awareness and calm readiness state, if you can keep it a CALM state. ...sometimes you are best served by being weak...
    Interesting ideas. The thing is, ALL of us regularly slip into a state of mind that I call the "innocent" state, in which we are rather like babies, completely unaware of ourselves. I was uchi deshi to a 10th dan in Japan and he would sometimes be sort of "out there somewhere". On the other hand, you couldn't get too close without his "coming back".

    In fact, I believe that anyone who has conditioned himself to the point that he does NOT go into the self-forgetful mind-like-a-baby state is on the edge of psychosis.

    The innocent state is our state of grace and it is our real life. If we lose that, what are we protecting with martial arts?

    But if we have that, it does not limit us at all or endanger us. We all have nervous systems that have been selectively developed over hundreds of thousands of years to keep us ticking. As children, we fall off beds, fall off chairs and tables and couches. We wander innocently through the world and are not hit by cars or falling objects, or taken by strangers, and we live. Those who do not, don't pass down those genes.

    But if we have some martial arts experience, we can go into the innocent state and always be "lightly" aware. Sensei exhibited this. He could be surprised, and he reacted like anyone would. The difference is that he didn't "freeze" after the surprise moment. If the surprise meant trouble, he moved right into technique.

    He was always relaxed and easy-going, but he was a martial artist through and through. Someone said that zanshin is "remaining mind," and the linked website also called it “the mind with no remainder.” I think that describes how sensei was.

    As for me, I try to project no sense of being a martial artist. I would rather be invisible. If someone threatens me, I use what I call "zero stance". Any "martial arts stance" is a "statement" of sorts. If the aite threatens you, it is usually with a mixture of words and body language. He expects you to "reply" by adjusting your stance, moving your hands, changing your facial expression or something. This is his feedback. If you jump into a "stance", it shouts, "I am a martial artist." The zero stance shouts back nothing. And getting NO feedback from his "threat message," the would-be attacker feels a strange inner disquiet and discomfort. And that is the very beginning of aiki: I make no sign, but he begins to feel uncomfortable.

    Thanks for reading.
    David Orange, Jr.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    "That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
    Lao Tzu

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    Interesting thing about that "mind-like-a-baby" thing. If you project a shadow in front of a baby and increase it asymmetrically, the baby does nothing. If you increase it symmetrically, the baby throws up its arms to protect its head. No training, just hardwired response. If something seems to be coming towards the head, protect it.
    Takes us karate people how many years to do that fluidly and instinctively?

    As for the rest, I would say that, like a baby, our calm mind is like a swan, gliding gracefully on a pool. Looks serene, but go underneath the water and there's a lot of frantic paddling going on!
    We're constantly getting input, processing it, and acting on the basis of that information, whether it be input from the legs about the floor, eyes about our surroundings, ears about sounds and balance, etc. The real trick is to condition our unconscious mind, which tends to know more than our conscious mind, to recognize threats, which it often does quite well, and then be able to communicate it to our conscious mind, which is often where the problem is.
    It's not that the subconscious doesn't communicate, it's that we often don't listen. As we get older, civilized behaviour accretes on top of our childlike assessments, and for women, "feminine" behavior often accretes as well. (I've had so many women starting out in karate not be able to punch hard, not because they weren't strong, but because they just couldn't conceive of doing damage to someone. I'm sure you all have seen that as well. Once they figured out that hitting someone is kinda fun, well...) Unfortunately, this often forms a barrier, such that we hear the warning, but don't respond because "This is a perfectly safe area," or "I'm just being paranoid," or any number of other reasons that I'm sure you all can supply ad nauseum.

    Once you start stripping the warnings away, you do get paranoid for a bit. This is perfectly normal. You're suddenly getting a lot of warnings you were ignoring before, and are trying to get them under conscious management. After a while, it gets calmer, and eventually, serenity is within reach. Before you get there, it's important to be watchful for any little voices encouraging you to join a paramilitary group, run into the wilderness to escape, or anything else. That too, will pass...
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    As for me, I try to project no sense of being a martial artist. I would rather be invisible. If someone threatens me, I use what I call "zero stance". Any "martial arts stance" is a "statement" of sorts. If the aite threatens you, it is usually with a mixture of words and body language. He expects you to "reply" by adjusting your stance, moving your hands, changing your facial expression or something. This is his feedback. If you jump into a "stance", it shouts, "I am a martial artist." The zero stance shouts back nothing. And getting NO feedback from his "threat message," the would-be attacker feels a strange inner disquiet and discomfort. And that is the very beginning of aiki: I make no sign, but he begins to feel uncomfortable.

    Thanks for reading.
    When someone's acting aggressive towards me, I prefer to act, a bit. I'm not comfortable with always making him uncomfortable. If he's acting out of insecurity, making him comfortable may calm him down. If you're in a bar, there's always PIBU (Pitcher of (Beer Name)) to calm a person down. Bit of cash out of your pocket, but no fight, so who cares?
    If you're from a martial culture, you'll recognize the warning signs if someone just doesn't move, but demonstrates awareness of you. Unfortunately, ours isn't the only culture out there.
    If they're acting out of a need to clown, to grandstand for your friends, they may not recognize your stillness, or may misinterpret it. It may be interpreted as a challenge, as whatever. Sometimes playing along, joining in the joking (if you understand the culture well enough not to insult) can get you out. Sometimes it's something else. In Navajo culture, they can get antsy if you're wearing shades. (tribal mythology about needing to see a person's eyes, still powerful on reservations and in the subconscious) Taking them off can prevent a fight, or suddenly calm a hostile situation.

    Basically what I'm saying here is that aiki is not just AWARENESS of the threat, it's HARMONIZING with the threat. When threatened, you are not just aware of the threat, but of the kind of threat, if possible the reason, etc. You harmonize with it, get into the head of the threatener, and then manipulate it to the desired ending. Mind you, this works best if the person is trying to work himself up to the physical violence, and not just kicking it off right away. Manipulating the situation may involve backing the person down before he gets himself to the point of no return, getting him to sit down and relax, finding camaraderie with him, or getting in the first shot. It depends entirely on being able to read the unique characteristics of the situation and respond to them.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    Honestly speaking your way to practice zanshin is pretty whacked and borderlines on macho BS. Zanshin should be evident in your technique……By looking at the technique demonstration mpegs on your website it is obvious you are not practicing zanshin.
    Hi Robert,

    No offense intended...strictly for my own edification, could you point me to some vids that you think *do* demonstrate zanshin? I have my own aikido perspectives, but I'd like to understand the use of the term in another context.

    Thanks,
    Ron

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