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Thread: Transmission and Succession in the Classical Arts

  1. #16
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    Joanne,

    Good post about the Shinkokai. Toyama Ryu is a member of that organization although it is a gendai budo....I've performed enbu during one of its Bunka no Hi Hono Enbu at Meiji Jingu.

    ...Which is where I met Meik Skoss, enbu-ing the Toda-ha Buko-Ryu Naginatajutsu. MarkF, I have no doubts of his bona fides.

    How does that fit?

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  2. #17
    MarkF Guest

    Wink

    Sounds fine with me, Guy, and I thought I had made the point, but that just about sums it up. The fit is, well, tight, but I can live with it. I have only seen Meik on TV, and as we all know television does not lie!

  3. #18
    pequot Guest

    Default How do define

    Originally posted by MarkF


    Mssers. Angier and Skoss are as Japanese to me as any other Japanese. Just because photos show otherwise, does not mean a picture does not, in fact, lie.

    I can't understand what you mean by this statement. I am pretty sure Mr. Skoss would rather be known as "who he is" rather than as a "Japanese".

    What do you mean by "Japanese"? Japanese Americans living in the United States are not Japanese in a cultural sense, Thier dominate culture being the American culture (for those Japanese Americans who were born in the US).Truely bi-cultural people are rare to find,(being bi-lingual does not make one bi-cultural!)

    No matter how long Mr. Skoss (I don't know anything about how long Mr. Angier did or did not live in Japan, but the same in his case) he will NEVER be Japanese in the sense that Japanese are Japanese.And I think Mr. Skoss would be the first to acknowledge that he will never have the same degree of cultural understanding that a Japanese person has of the Japanese culture.

    Do you think Mr. Skoss wants to be the next soke of the Toda-ha Bukoryu, or perhaps he feels that is something that should remain in the hands of a Japanese person.

    Being able to swing a naginata and sword, and jo around with a high level of skill does not translate into being "Japanese". Maybe Mr, Skoss would be able to speak for himself, about how Japanese he thinks he is and how he feels about this issue.Considering the amount of time he has lived in Japan, he would be in a good position to offer a very informed opinion.

    Mr. Skoss?


  4. #19
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    Default Toda Ha Buko Ryu

    It is my understanding that from a technical standpoint the senior person in the style is Ellis Amdur Sensei in Seattle. I had the good fortune to be there, as was Meik Skoss, when Nita sensei came from Japan to give him his certification. Amdur Sensei said that for precisely the reasons that are being discussed it was felt that it was not appropriate to have a non-Japanese and non-resident (in Japan) be the soke of the style so there is a Japanese gentleman who is the official Soke. But it is my understanding that on matters relating to technique, Nita Sensei, the retired headmistress of the school, considered Amdur Sensei to be the court of last resolve so to speak. If any of this is inaccurate please feel free to correct me, I was jsut a beginner student and there may have been aspects that i didn't understand.

    [Edited by George Ledyard on 06-26-2000 at 08:55 PM]
    George S. Ledyard
    Aikido Eastside
    Defensive Tactics Options
    Bellevue, WA

  5. #20
    MarkF Guest

    Post Over-analizing

    Mr. Yellowhawk,
    First, welcome to e-budo, and thanks for anwering my post, but I think you are way over-analyzing what I said. This was nothing more than a generalization, but of the two people who have become immersed in a culture to a point of belonging, I believe these two are them. I don't know either of them personally, but Mr. Skoss seems to fit the general picture of any koryu practitioner who is not Japanese. Of course they are not actually Japanese and this is where is bogs down. However, I did think that most would understand what I meant, and frankly, it does not matter a whole lot what I think or if these two gentlemen really are Japanese, English, American, or Texan. They know who they are, and that is what is important. It also went to another poster who said Mr. Skoss was playing judo and having fun. Now, possibly all Japanese people you know do not have fun doing anything, but those who I know can have a great time, be it here, there, or anywhere.

    I will not get into a breakdown of genes, appearances, and the like, but I only meant, that as far as I know, these two, today, have accomplished much and have invested the time to be as close as they want to be. Of course being bi-lingual doesn't make one anything but bilingual, but in doing so, doors are opened and whole new worlds can be experienced, my experiences aside. I was only, and this was my point, was giving credit where I believe credit is due. Was it so difficult to understand that you took my words at face value, or are you reading something into them of which I am not aware? It was only a compliment to them, and I did not expect it to be taken so literally. If that was your understanding, I apologize.

  6. #21
    pequot Guest

    Default Just taking adevantage to make a point.

    Mark,

    I didn't mean to make it sound that personal. I understood what you meant. But thought it was a good opportunity to point out that words have a certain weight to them.

    In the case of Mr. Skoss, he has forgotten more about budo and Japanese culture than I will probably ever learn.I don't know him personally so I don't really know how he really feels. I was trying to be rhetorical when I wrote "Mr. Skoss?"

    I know some non-Japanese who think they are Japanese. Maybe I don't have to mention names here, many know who I am talking about. To me it seems sad not to have pride in one's own culture, even if one lives most of their life in another culture.

    There seems to be a lot going on here at E-budo about "Japan" and "Japan-ness" and how that relates to Japanese Martial Arts.

    I meant onely to point out an issue of semantics. I confess to being a little sensitive to cultural/race issues and identity.

    Peace.

  7. #22
    MarkF Guest

    Post Same here, Mike

    Same here, Mike. I have those tendencies as well so I hope everything is OK. It was just a point and nothing more so let's for get it. I get somewhat high and mighty when someone explains me to myself

  8. #23
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    Mr Yellowhawk,
    Just wanted to say hello! My family is from the South Kingston area of Rhode Island, so having you post is like hearing a voice from back home. Welcome to E-budo!
    Several people have brought up an interesting point about culture. One of my observations from the strange world of a graduate MFA program ( From which I just graduated this Spring ) is that people who have a strong cultural background from which they come tend to have stronger work.
    I believe that this is because they have a sense of their own identity which serves to shape the skills and experiences of their life. Many suburban American kids do not have this, and I have often wondered why. Perhaps it is the emphasis on the nuclear family, which is now becoming the single parent family. I also think that television tends to fill the unconcious with a lot of empty filler, the equivalent of marshmallow fluff. I remember walking down the street one day wondering about the preponderance of eighteen year olds wearing tee shirts with images like Scooby-Doo and the Atari logo. My own theory is that these icons have power beacause they were a touchstone of security in their childhood. For a ten year old child who finds him/her self being routinely shuffled between two parents after a divorce, everything seems ambiguous and confusing. For a while, Mommy lives with Rob in Seattle. No..now they're broken up and Mommy is in upstate NY. Daddy is in California with his second wife etc. Wherever he finds himself, however, when the child pads downstairs on Saturday morning there are always his favorite shows! An anchor of crude myths in an uncertain world. What is missing is a larger worldview that goes back more that fifty years. It is no wonder to me that when these kids decide that they want to pursue art as a lifestyle, they often have difficulty creating focused work that effectively transcends the commercial culture. I contrast that with a Haitian friend of mine who recently put up a wonderful show in which she created a series of ceramic boats full of figurines as part of a metaphor about the experience of travel, drawing heavily on the experience of the hazards her people have faced in making their way to the United States. Beautiful, timeless, and substantial. I believe it is this quality which we all seek in our pursuit of the martial arts.
    Krzysztof M. Mathews
    http://www.firstgearterritories.com

    Every place around the world it seemed the same
    Can't hear the rhythm for the drums
    Everybody wants to look the other way
    When something wicked this way comes

    "Jeremiah Blues, Part 1"
    Sting-The Soul Cages

  9. #24
    Meik Skoss Guest

    Default transmission and succession

    Just to set the record straight, I do not think and never have think/thought I am Japanese. Sweet Jay-zus! Why would I want to be?! You've got to have lived/trained there long enough to know what I mean by that. I like and respect lots of things about Japan and Japanese culture, but there isn't a doubt in my mind that it's a heckuva lot easier and nicer to live in the U.S. and to be an American.

    I also think that one MUST live/train in the original place and culture for an extended period of time to have any sort of deep understanding of the martial arts (or other forms of traditional culture). Thus, if one is interested in budo or sado or kado, one needs to go to Japan. If one's "thing" is pentjak silat, best go to Malaysia or Indonesia. It's the same with Chinese arts: either Taiwan, Southeast Asia, Honkers, or the People's Republic of China. There's so much more to martial arts/traditional culture than techniques; I am absolutely convinced that one will never truly "get" it without that sort of deep immersion.

    Re: Toda-ha Buko-ryu and the future succession, not that it is anybody's business but ours (members of the ryu), Nitta Sensei has, indeed, talked to me about the matter. No, the position was never "offered" to me, nor would I accept if it was. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid. Headmastership of a real koryu is something that only works if a Japanese is in the position -- only a person of that culture/society could possibly do all that's necessary.

    Don Angier (whom I know slightly) may be in a slightly odd position. Whether or not what he calls Yanagi-ryu is "real" or not (and I've some questions about that, some of which he has been kind enough to answer, others which cannot be answered because he didn't have the information; if people have an interest in that, contact me personally via e-mail, at: <mskoss@koryubooks.com>), that's a unique, "one-off" kind of situation.

    Shingetsu Muso Yanagi-ryu is a comprehensive system that is also from the Yanagawa-han (as, I am given to understand, was Yoshida Kotaro's family.) The Nihon Kobudo Kyokai, the more influential of the kobudo organizations in Japan, has, in fact, recognized Kano Takehiko as the head of the ryu. Kano is also a skilled exponent of Hoki-ryu and Shibukawa-ryu (under Suminaga Hiroshi Taketsugu). I doubt that Don's position would ever be considered even a remote possibility without some serious documentation. Even then, there'd probably be considerable resistance to the idea -- Japanese kobudo is, after all, Japanese. Purely and simply, the idea of a non-Japanese being a headmaster isn't a possibility.

    Toda-ha Buko-ryu is a case in point. There are a number of people who hold okuden (mokuroku), all but Nitta S. are not Japanese. There are three people with the title of "shihan" and only Nitta S. is Japanese. There are four people with a "shihan-dai" license; none are Japanese. At this time. As the headmaster of Toda-ha Buko-ryu, Nitta S. is a very rare person, a person who is able to look beyond nationality, age, sex, or race to the individual inside, but she is also very realistic and is aware of the heavy responsibility she bears in ensuring the ryu continues as a viable entity. I'm not betraying a confidence when I say that she would never, every do anything (like naming a non-Japanese) to succeed her. The very thought is ludicrous.

    And, to further set the record straight, no, Ellis Amdur is *not* the ultimate technical authority. That'd be Nitta S. I should also mention that there are other persons, senior to Ellis, who hold the same technical qualifications and an individual who is even more senior but has not been given a license of that level. No matter. Ellis is the first person to have been given a shihan menjo, along with the seal, and the authority/responsibility to issue licenses by himself. The second person to receive this level of recognition and the authority to grant licenses (that's not the same thing as beung a headmaster) lives in Europe. All the people with okuden (mokuroku) are, technically speaking, "peers" in the art, albeit there's certainly a difference in seniority and whose opinion carries "more weight." The same is true in a number of other koryu, a phenomenon that I don't think is very well understood by people outside Japan. But that's a story for another day...


  10. #25
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    Mr. Skoss,

    Thank you for coming on and commenting.

    Would you mind offering a couple of possible scenarios that you feel are likely to be considered in the successorship of Buko-ryu (that follow the logical Japanese "rules" of ryu-ha succession)?

    I ask partly out of general curiousity, but in particular because the topic of how koryu successorship is properly transmitted is being debated in Daito ryu at the web site of the alledged Honbu dojo in Abashiri, Hokkaido (per my email to you yesterday). They claim that if a current headmaster does not assign anyone to succeed them before passing, that tradition dictates that the ryu *must* be passed to a bloodline relative.

    This is logical on one hand, but in the case of Daito ryu as I'm sure you well know, there is debate over what Tokimune Soke had really wanted, and to me that seems more important than "how things are typically done". For example, it does not seem that either faction is comfortable with Mrs. (or Mr.) Oshima assuming the Sokeship - including her younger sister Mrs. Yokoyama. If Tokimune Soke was following the "implied/factual code of ryu tranmission", wouldn't he have automatically considered his younger brother first (bad choice for obvious reasons), then his eldest daughter (Mrs. Oshima)? But he didn't - he appears to have named Mrs. Yokoyama to represent the art, and to work with Mrs. Oshima in administrative matters.

    If there is no obvious, logical choice for succession, it would seem to me better to allow a break in the family line for one generation (or as many as necessary) until a qualified candidate can be chosen (one of their sons).

    Any thoughts you have regarding the theory of transmission or of this issue in particular would be very welcome, as it is a hot topic right now!

    Thanks,




    [Edited by Nathan Scott on 06-28-2000 at 02:59 PM]
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  11. #26
    Tetsutaka Guest

    Default a fine point...

    Originally posted by Meik Skoss
    Toda-ha Buko-ryu is a case in point. There are a number of people who hold okuden (mokuroku), all but Nitta S. are not Japanese. There are three people with the title of "shihan" and only Nitta S. is Japanese. There are four people with a "shihan-dai" license; none are Japanese.
    Escuse me, but what exactly does "shihan-dai" mean in this context? I was told that it was not a "functional term" in Japanese budo.

    Thanks in advance,

  12. #27
    Meik Skoss Guest

    Default transmission and succession

    "Shihan-dai" is a term that can be taken, in the context of Toda-ha Buko-ryu, as a person who is licensed to teach as a representative of the headmaster, Nitta Suzu(y)o. "Shihan," on t'other hand, is a person who is both licensed to teach and who has authority to grant licenses over his/her name and name of the headmaster. This is conferred by a license, and the official hanko of the ryu, which is applied to the license in a certain position as a means of authenticating the document.

    Another meaning of "shihan-dai" is "assistant instructor," but that is a little problematic in some ways. It really is a function of the particular context. Given it is TBR I was talking about, think of it as a person who can teach and is the representative of the headmaster.

  13. #28
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    Default

    Houston,

    [what does] "shihan-dai" mean in this context? I was told that it was not a "functional term" in Japanese budo.
    The ~dai suffix means "for, or in place of". Example: "(noun)~dai hitsu" means someone "wrote (brushed) on behalf" of someone else.

    I think the "non-functional" [erroneous] term used in the US is "soke-dai" -- some people think it means the appointed/designated inheritor of a system. From my understanding -- and Meik, correct me if I'm wrong -- the proper term is "soke dairi" meaning "Acting Soke" -- and is used when the soke is too sick, etc., to perform his/her responsibilities, but has yet to officially retire. It has nothing to do with an "heir apparent."

    Meik -- I'm still missing the publication information page from "Kenjutsu Kyohan Shokai." (hint, hint) Can I get you to send me a copy?

    Regards
    Guy



    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  14. #29
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    I notice my name being taken in vain here, so to support what Meik wrote. Nitta Sensei is not retired - she is not only the soke, but the chief instructor of the Tokyo dojo. I am the technical authority of only my dojo, and even there, I defer to Nitta Sensei - not out of some kind of pseudo humbleness, but because she knows much more than I. I send my students to Japan in hopes that she will fix what I've let go astray. If I am at the dojo of one of my dojo brothers, such as Meik, they are the technical authority not I.
    If I go to Tokyo, everyone there is junior to me in rank and in years, and as I practice with people, I may correct something that I think is incorrect (and if corrected in turn by Nitta Sensei, I get the benefit). I do not teach there, nor would I ever expect to. It's not my dojo.
    Were someone of even roughly my years of experience (for example, Meik is senior to me, and others very strong, a few years less), we will discuss technical points, and sometimes one of us will come around and sometimes we'll agree to disagree. Of course, in the end, I will be absolutely convinced I am right, and he or she a blithering idiot, but if it's merely a technical fine point, it makes no never mind. They are not in my dojo nor I in theirs. On the other hand, if someone were to somehow violate the structure of the ryu itself, corrupting it in some way, I think that both Meik and I would be rather intense about it.

    BESt

    Ellis Amdur

  15. #30
    MarkF Guest

    Post Mr. Skoss

    Please accept my apologies for any misunderstanding which has been made. My comment was only a general comment concerning the Japanese and koryu. There are very few whose claims I take seriously, but I have read and seen more of you than anyone else, so please accept this apology. It wasn't meant as it came out, and I do seem to step in stuff quite often on the Internet. Thank you.

    BTW: Are you playing judo and may I ask where and with whom? I am a simple judoka so please excuse the impudence in asking you.

    Regards,

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