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Thread: Transmission and Succession in the Classical Arts

  1. #31
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    There are many Japanese who love to play, sing and listen to American blues, bluegrass and my current love, and that of my youth, Appalachian folk music. They sing the songs and play the music and it sounds right (sometimes), and they can and do love it every bit as much as we do. Some can sing it better and play it better than we can also. However, they will never know what it is to be Appalachian dirt poor. They will never know what it’s like to be raised along the banks of an American river in a house with dirt fools and no heat in the bedrooms. This certainly does not invalidate their work and their ability. It also does not mean they can’t show some of us a thing or two in technique as well. It does mean that they will never be able to feel the guts of the music, or understand its birth in the American poor and working class experience.

    I believe that my Aikido experience certainly is not impaired by my lack of time in Japan, and although my MJER is lacking in the cultural since I hope it is not to out of the main stream in the technical since. Even if it is that can be fixed. I believe what gave birth to Aikido transcends a culture but I also think with MJER that is not the case. I will do my best to keep the art alive from my view and vantage point, and let others better qualified tend to the historical aspects of it’s connection to its source. Does this invalidate my effort? Of course not but I must understand who I am in the course of things and I must not regret or lament the fact I am who I am.

    So what is it that is lost in the not being there? Whith each master of the Appalachian Mountain Music the music changes I suppose with each master of the koryu the technique changes to some degree. So is it only the cluture that differs?

    Dennis Hooker
    http://www.shindai.com


    Originally posted by John Lindsey
    Howdy,

    I am surprised nobody has answered this yet...or maybe they want to but don't have their Nomex dogi on.

    Don Angier is probably the best known and respected person claiming to have been given such a title. I am not sure of the extact details of this, so maybe Toby or someone else can add to it.

    Dennis Hooker
    www.shindai.com

  2. #32
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    Originally posted by Dennis Hooker
    There are many Japanese who love to play, sing and listen to American blues, bluegrass and my current love, and that of my youth, Appalachian folk music.

    *snip*

    It does mean that they will never be able to feel the guts of the music, or understand its birth in the American poor and working class experience.
    Hi there. Having heard some completely kickass bluegrass players in Yokohama, I can understand some of what you're getting at. It was surreal to be sitting in a room full of people who could play all of my requests and sing the words with native-sounding pronounciation and inflection, but not be able to talk about it with me in English afterward.

    Nevertheless, this sounds like that idea that white folks can never have soul. Eminem and I disagree, but folks buying this would argue forcefully that even a Japanese bluegrass player that lives for years with the banjo player in Deliverance will never quite get it either.

    Doesn't it bother you as a foreigner to say that even if a foreigner is able to comfortably read and discuss all aspects of her art in Japanese, has flawless technique and is willing to accept all of the social responsibilities associated with successorship (including living in Japan), that foreigner will never understand what it is to be Japanese enough to _understand_ her art?

    Help me if I misunderstood you.

    Regards,

    Rich B

  3. #33
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    Mr. Threadgill's earlier story about Mr. Angier's visit to a Japanese martial arts collector reminded me of something:

    "The gentleman told me he had never seen a foreigner with such detailed knowledge of Japanese martial implements."

    While I have no personal knowledge of Mr. Angier or his style's linage, I mean no disrespect, but it is not very surprising to hear a Japanese person being overly complimentary toward a foreigner who shows any knowledge of their culture.

    When I was working in Japan, one of my subordinates was planning her wedding. She was discussing the many implements and accessories which go with a formal Japanese wedding kimono at lunch one day. She didn't know why there was a small knife included in the ensemble. I told her the reason and the historical background for this.

    You would have thought I had revealed some secret texts by the expressions and comments on the other office ladies. They kept saying that I knew more about Japanese history than they did.

    Many times the simple act of eating Japanese dishes would elicit surprise and wonder from locals. In many of their minds, foreigners are not able to tolerate Japanese food. Even being able to speak a few simple phrases in their native language would result in surprise and excessive compliments about my "excellent comprehension" of Japanese. It didn't matter that I may have learned the phrase from watching television the previous evening.

    I wouldn't put too much emphasis on such flattery. It happens all the time in Japan for exhibiting the slightest comprehension of their culture.

  4. #34
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    Default Japanese or not?

    The details of how transmission is made and to whom is best dealt with by the experts, which i am not. Actually I am rather glad that I am in Aikido where there isn't this issue and peeple are stuck judging you by how good you are on the mat. Not so much to debate that way.

    But I would like to point out that as we speak thing s are changing in Japan. Not only is it an issue of some discussion whether a foreigner can really imbibe a martial ryu as it was meant to be, it is probably getting just as difficult for most modern Japanese to do so. What does the average modern Japanese have in common with the samurai of old. Less and less with each passing generation I would say. In many of the arts, not just the martial arts but many of the traditional cultural arts, the students that are the most dedicated are foreigners not Japanese. In many of the arts the participation on the part of the Japanese practicioners is more in the style of a hobby. Part of their heritage, something enriching in their lives but not as a way of life. Many of my acquaintances have studied various arts in Japan for substantial periods of time. Their reports indicate that the Japanese are not the senior people in the arts they are pursuing. Americans, French, Germans, I am sure other countries as well are there in Japan throwing their whole lives into their training. They work to train, they devote every resource in their lives to their training. It is not lost on the older Japanese masters that in many cases if they wish to pass on what they have learned in a lifetime of training it is going to have to be to a foriegner. That being so we are either going to open up the conception of what it is to be a legitimate teacher of Koryu (or other arts) to include non-Japanese teachers or we will simply have to state that the koryu (or traditional arts) are defunct and then we can get on with training. This is going to be true in the non-classical arts as well. The best Aikido in the world is not being done in Japan anymore (with the exception of the few old timers who are still alive). Just as Buddhism moved from India to SE Asia, to China, to Tibet, to Mongolia, and to Japan only to die out in its country of origin I see that trend in Japanese martial arts unless there is a renaissance of interest within the younger generation of Japanese. Will that be the death of the arts? I don't think so any more than it killed Buddhism. It'll just be different. Then we can sit around on e-budo debating whose difference is the real authentic differnce.
    George S. Ledyard
    Aikido Eastside
    Defensive Tactics Options
    Bellevue, WA

  5. #35
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    Default Japanese or not?

    The details of how transmission is made and to whom is best dealt with by the experts, which I am not. Actually I am rather glad that I am in Aikido where there isn't this issue and people are stuck judging you by how good you are on the mat. Not so much to debate that way.

    But I would like to point out that as we speak thing s are changing in Japan. Not only is it an issue of some discussion whether a foreigner can really imbibe a martial Ryu as it was meant to be, it is probably getting just as difficult for most modern Japanese to do so. What does the average modern Japanese have in common with the samurai of old? Less and less with each passing generation I would say. In many of the arts, not just the martial arts but many of the traditional cultural arts, the students that are the most dedicated are foreigners not Japanese. In many of the arts the participation on the part of the Japanese practitioners is more in the style of a hobby. Part of their heritage, something enriching in their lives but not as a way of life. Many of my acquaintances have studied various arts in Japan for substantial periods of time. Their reports indicate that the Japanese are not the senior people in the arts they are pursuing. Americans, French, Germans, I am sure other countries as well are there in Japan throwing their whole lives into their training. They work to train, they devote every resource in their lives to their training. It is not lost on the older Japanese masters that in many cases if they wish to pass on what they have learned in a lifetime of training it is going to have to be to a foreigner. That being so we are either going to open up the conception of what it is to be a legitimate teacher of Koryu (or other arts) to include non-Japanese teachers or we will simply have to state that the Koryu (or traditional arts) are defunct and then we can get on with training. This is going to be true in the non-classical arts as well. The best Aikido in the world is not being done in Japan anymore (with the exception of the few old timers who are still alive). Just as Buddhism moved from India to SE Asia, to China, to Tibet, to Mongolia, and to Japan only to die out in its country of origin I see that trend in Japanese martial arts unless there is a renaissance of interest within the younger generation of Japanese. Will that be the death of the arts? I don't think so any more than it killed Buddhism. It'll just be different. Then we can sit around on e-budo debating whose difference is the real authentic difference.
    George S. Ledyard
    Aikido Eastside
    Defensive Tactics Options
    Bellevue, WA

  6. #36
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    George:

    I would like to point out that, as has been mentioned on this board many times before, there are a number of licensed foreign koryu instructors, some with the highest level licenses that can be given, so it is obvious that the inheritors of these arts feel confident that the foreigners whom they have licensed (and, by inferrence, any other foreigner who might one day qualify) are capable of understanding and teaching the arts in question. The "can the foreigners really understand" point is, at least in these cases, quite moot, as the masters of these arts, the only people really qualified to answer this question, have already done so.

    As has also been mentioned, there is a significant difference between receiving the highest license of technical mastery and being designated the official lineal successor of a particular ryu. Mr. Skoss has addressed this issue quite forthrightly and lucidly.

    It is true that more and more foreigners are studying traditional Japanese arts. Good. It is also true that, in general, there are still many more Japanese who continue to do so. Good as well. I think it is extremely dangerous to generalize that "the Japanese" study these arts "just as hobbies" while "the foreigners" are the ones who study really seriously. Some foreigners study seriously, some don't. Some Japanese study seriously, some don't.

    It may very well be that some particular ryu have a number of foreigners in the senior ranks. The situation may be completely different in other ryu.

    I sense an implied criticism of the koryu in general in the tone of your post. You seem to feel that the gendai arts are better because people are judged solely on skill and no one bothers worrying about lineage or succession. This is fine if you consider the bugei to be nothing more than a set of physical skills which can be displayed in public contests or demonstrations. Skill is important, of course, and no one is saying it is not. However, there is more to it than that. The classical ryu pass on their traditions in a different manner, and rather than criticizing them for it, I think that we should accept the fact that gendai and koryu arts are different. As I have said before, this does not necessarily need to be seen as a value judgement, even if some people want to make it into one.

    Earl
    Earl Hartman

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    You have misundertood my point . I certainly don't feel that one is better than the other. What I did say was that I am personally glad that it's not so complicated in Aikido. People are quite creative about the ways in which they can create division and conflict between one another. Often it starts with a minor or even imagined distinction and is blown up into a truly devisive issue that can even occasion conflict. So when we are speaking of Koryu and we get to the point where the discussion involves whether someone like Angier Sensei is a legitimate exponent or not we have gotten to a hair splitting degree that I don't find useful or productive particularly.

    My point was that someone like Angier Sensei in particular is a good example of a teacher who has thrown himself into traditional Samuari in a way that is rare even for a modern Japanese person. With the changes in modern Japanese culture I think that whatever criticisms that you can level at the foreign koryu practitioners as to their inadquecies to represent the koryu in leadership positions will be exactly the same issues for Japanese exponents.

    If I implied that there are no serious Japanese students or that all foreign studenst are serious I didn't mean to. I was using generalization to make a point. Since this is a web discussion group and not a dissertation a certain amount of generaliztion is necessary. I stand by the general gist of what I said, ackknowedging that there are many exceptions that won't fit the overall trend that I was pointing out.
    George S. Ledyard
    Aikido Eastside
    Defensive Tactics Options
    Bellevue, WA

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    George:

    Thank you for your clarification. I am an outsider as far as aikido is concerned, although I was fairly well acquainted with a Shin-Shin Toitsu Aikido exponent once who regaled me with stories about how Tohei Sensei fell into such disfavor with the main Honbu group that, apparently, some photographs of Tohei in group photos with O-Sensei were aribrushed to remove Tohei Sensei from the photos. I cannot vouch for the veracity of this particular story, but it does seem that there is serious sectarianism in the aikido world as well. I agree that it often seems silly how people can find ways to divide themselves, but for an outsider like me it seems that all of the arts, whther gendai or koryu, are similarly afflicted with this particular disease. Of course, if one concerns oneself exclusively with one's own line of a tradition, then sectarian differences become moot.

    I don't recall anyone ever questioning Angier Sensei's qualifications as a serious martial artist. Although I have never met Mr. Threadgill, for example, I know people who know him, and from his posts he strikes me as a serious and accomplished martial artist. He has nothing but praise for Angier Sensei's abilities, and, since he knows Angier Sensei and I do not, I will take him at his word, as is only reasonable and proper. As far as I can tell, the only question that has been raised concerns Angier Sensei's status as the sole inheritor of a particular style. Again, as an outsider, this seens to me to be an entirely different issue. To my eyes, this question was strictly an historical one and did not cast any aspersions on Angier Sensei's abilities. As I said, I do not say this to take one side or the other, since I do not have the expertise to judge.

    From a strictly scholarly perspective, the effort to verify the historical provenance of a particular ryu and how it has been transmitted seems to me to be an eminently reasonable endeavor. To some, this might seem like archeaology or evaluating antiques: a skill that requires a great deal of study and the mastery of a massive amount of arcane lore and picayune bits of knowledge, but which, in the final analysis, is only useful for evaluating things that most people don't care too much about.

    As I said, recognizing a difference and making a value judgement based upon it are two different things, and they don't necessarily need to go together.

    Earl
    Earl Hartman

  9. #39
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    Originally posted by Don Cunningham:

    Many times the simple act of eating Japanese dishes would elicit surprise and wonder from locals. In many of their minds, foreigners are not able to tolerate Japanese food. Even being able to speak a few simple phrases in their native language would result in surprise and excessive compliments about my "excellent comprehension" of Japanese. It didn't matter that I may have learned the phrase from watching television the previous evening.



    This is something which has not elicited reply because I believe this to be true, although I have never been to Japan. I have, however, lived South of the Border, and I can tell you the look people get when eating menudo or posole with the hottest chile in town (chilequines) is surprising to the citizens as they expect foreigners to explode into flames, or at least drink something cold by the gallon in an attempt to put out the fire. While I don't know of the appetite of the Japanese to a Westerner eating something (Earl can fill you in on what it is) which is prepared in paste of its own guts, I can tell you that the people of Mexico delight in the spectacle, and even the grudging respect for someone who is sweating, tears rolling down their faces, and then asking for no liquid refreshment which they know only makes it work. Then again, I have never gone into a taqueria and ordered Tacos de sesos (brains of no particular animal) and would be something in which the smell of them cooking is enough to cause me to snort vomit through my nose. I think this is "any culture, International" so the delighted faces in Japan upon witnessing the general visiting gaijin is a look found in most areas of the worlds.


    originally posted by George Ledyard:
    . What I did say was that I am personally glad that it's not so complicated in Aikido.


    It isn't as complicated as in Aikido? While finding and being accepted to a dojo, be it here or in Japan may be much easier, the politics of doing any style of the aiki arts is so abundant that the statement is difficult to comprehend. I have heard people make fun of "aiki bunnies," the very believers in Ueshiba O-sensei as "fairy stuff." Some say they are doing aikido but not that "philosophy crap," but the tight circle rough and tough aiki which is missing in the "aikikai" aikido. "Aikido is nothing but soft judo."

    It may be easier than trying to find the right koryu instructor, but it is no easier than finding the right style or even, the right dojo in which to learn aikido. I have no doubt that, dojo to dojo, one experiences any art differently, but the politics can make it as difficult, providing the student, or teacher, knows what s/he is doing. Even in judo today, if you want to learn "traditional" judo, it takes at least the same kind of search to find the right place. The average judoka will say "we don't use karate-like striking. We (as if they speak for every judo dojo) do not do not kick, or use swords, knifes guns (well, this is only true in the use of such in an offensive manner, but it is there)," and this comes from the mouths of yudansha and higher rankng teachers. Things are not only different between gendai and koryu in this manner, but are different within any art which one needs only to go to another dojo in another town.

    Yes, it is very easy to find good aikido. I live in a rather small, but growing town and there are multiple dojo here which offer aikido (aikikai comes to mind). There are three judo dojo here, none which are open year round, and each of then offers something different depending on what you seek. If you want competition, it is there, but I suggest a visit or two to make sure. If you only want self defense, the same advice applies. If you want a more traditional approach (eg, Kano style), make visits to all three dojo. But remember, training will not be had all year round. Sorry, I got way off topic.

    My point is this: You are doing a koryu and go to Japan to do it, and expect to be welcomed warmly. This may happen if you are just visiting, but you should be remineded that you may be asked to leave. Same with gendai, or at least aikido and judo. If you say "I want to lear how to kill." An honest teacher is going to send you packing to Dr. dai Soke down the street. In a way, it would seem easier to find the elusive koryu teacher as there are so few from which to chose. Trial and error go hand in hand with aikido. Not all are lucky enough on their first sojourn of the art. Buyer Beware is a good thought to keep in mind.


  10. #40
    Jason Backlund Guest

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by ghp
    [B]Houston,

    "The ~dai suffix means "for, or in place of". Example: "(noun)~dai hitsu" means someone "wrote (brushed) on behalf" of someone else.

    "I think the "non-functional" [erroneous] term used in the US is "soke-dai" -- some people think it means the appointed/designated inheritor of a system. From my understanding -- and Meik, correct me if I'm wrong -- the proper term is "soke dairi" meaning "Acting Soke" -- and is used when the soke is too sick, etc., to perform his/her responsibilities, but has yet to officially retire. It has nothing to do with an "heir apparent."



    The word 'dai' also means 'generation.' In this context, the term soke-dai does imply an inheritor to a system. The creator of an art that uses this type of succession would have been referred to as either ryuso (founder of a ryu) or shodai (first generation). While he was alive, his successor would be designated soke-dai, who, upon the death of the ryuso, would become the ni-dai soke (second generation source of the family). His successor would be the san-dai (third generation), and so forth. The terms soke dairi and soke daihyo have additional kanji (ri and hyo) added to them which change the meanings. These do not denote succession, rather, as you pointed out, they are types of representatives of the soke.


    Jason Backlund
    Kobushin Kai
    Yamagata Ryu Bujutsu, Matsubara Ryu Bujutsu

    [Edited by Jason Backlund on 07-03-2000 at 01:14 AM]

  11. #41
    Meik Skoss Guest

    Default transmission and succession

    In (belated) response to Nathan Scott's questions regarding Toda-ha Buko-ryu and its internal affairs, I have to say it is not something I'm willing to talk about in detail in any public forum. They're honest questions, quite good ones as a matter of fact, and although I don't mind making general statements, it really isn't appropriate to say much that is very specific. It might be of interest to people here, but it's really no business of anybody outside Toda-ha Buko-ryu.

    So, sorry, but, I can't give you any more information. As far as your other questions (re: Daito-ryu are concerned, I don't really know much about what's going on and try to not get involved in any of that aiki stuff. Been there and done that -- even have a couple of t-shirts to prove it. I don't need any more, thankyouverymuch.

  12. #42
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    The word 'dai' also means 'generation.' In this context, the term soke-dai does imply an inheritor to a system.
    Sorry Jason, you are not quite correct. "Sei" means generation. Soke-dai does not mean inheritor; as a matter of fact, it doesn't mean anything except "soke's representative."

    When "~dai" is used to designate inheritor, its use is that of a "counter;" you must first have a number preceding this counter, such as sho-dai, ni-dai, san-dai, etc. And that is usually followed by another counter : "me" [san-dai me]; which is subsequently followed by "soke." You are correct in that this usage DOES imply inheritor. Concerning shodai, "sho" means "initial/beginning." Usually I've seen it written as "Shodai soke; sandai-me soke; juyon-dai me ["soke" being implied]. And, of course, "roku-sei" meaning "6th Generation" [again, with "soke" being implied].

    The creator of an art that uses this type of succession would have been referred to as either ryuso (founder of a ryu) or shodai (first generation).
    Ryuso and Sou-sha both mean founder. "Shodai" is not used by itself; I've always seen and heard it precede "soke." "Shodai soke"simply means "Intital/first soke."

    While he was alive, his successor would be designated soke-dai, who, upon the death of the ryuso, would become the ni-dai soke (second generation source of the family). His successor would be the san-dai (third generation), and so forth.
    Sorry -- I have not experienced this in Japan; although I see it all the time in the US. I am willing to admit that my knowledge-base is not as broad as is Messrs. Skoss and Amdur -- they may have heard of this usage in Japan. And if your explanation is the case, what happens when there are multiple "soke/shihan-dai" appointed?

    The terms soke dairi and soke daihyo have additional kanji (ri and hyo) added to them which change the meanings. These do not denote succession, rather, as you pointed out, they are types of representatives of the soke.
    I agree with you [perhaps because you agree with me?? -- no, because it is correct] ... Except that "soke-dai" and "soke-dairi" both mean the exact same thing : "Soke's representative."

    I should also point out that there is no definitive, single "correct" usage in Japan (still, I've never seen "soke-dai" to mean "heir apparent"). Different schools have differing traditions.

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  13. #43
    Jason Backlund Guest

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    ----------------------------------------------------------
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    "Sorry Jason, you are not quite correct. "Sei" means generation. Soke-dai does not mean inheritor; as a matter of fact, it doesn't mean anything except "soke's representative."
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Guy- The first time I heard the term soke-dai, it was used by Matsubara Isao (late soke of the Matsubara Ryu) to designate his nephew Matsubara Saburo as his successor.

    But, in the interest of referring strictly to definitions as used by the Japanese Ministry of Education- I will directly quote from a book entitled -A Guide to Reading and Writing Japanese- a dictionary edited by Florence Sakade, Emori Kenji, and Ohashi Susumu.

    "DAI, generation, price; ka(wari), substitute, deputy, compensation, exchange; ka(waru), to take the place of, to relieve; yo, generation, the age, the reign"

    This is not the combination of this word with other kanji, but the five stroke kanji of 'dai' by itself. Notice the definitions "generation," "to take the place of," "to relieve," and "reign." The word "representative" is applicable, I agree with you there, but in my experience, it must be augmented with the kanji hyo or ri (and perhaps others that I'm not familiar with) so as not to be mistaken for "generation."

    By the way- in this same dictionary, there are 31 kanji which are pronounced "Sei," non of which are directly defined as "generation." If you mean the second kanji in the word "sensei," that one is "life, birth, to be born." There was a 13 stroke kanji that meant "year, age, time" and that could possibly be interchanged with "generation."

    ----------------------------------------------------------
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    "When "~dai" is used to designate inheritor, its use is that of a "counter;"... usually followed by another counter : "me" [san-dai me]; which is subsequently followed by "soke."...
    "Ryuso and Sou-sha both mean founder. "Shodai" is not used by itself; I've always seen and heard it precede "soke." "Shodai soke"simply means "Intital/first soke."
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    You mean -initial/first generation soke.
    When I discussed this, I was using our kakei as my primary source, and we use ryuso rather than shodai, so I won't say anything regarding that. In our kakei it is written Ryuso, nidai, etc., followed only by the name of the person (there is no soke or me suffix added). One other place that I have seen this done is in the book -Flashing Steel- by Masayuki Shimabukuro and Leonard J. Pellman. Their kakei (or they refer to it as keizu) as written by Miura Takeyuki Hirefusa is listed in the intro, and is also devoid of the use of 'me' and 'soke.'

    ----------------------------------------------------------
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    "...if your explanation is the case, what happens when there are multiple "soke/shihan-dai" appointed?"
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    That is purely a matter of convention or tradition of a particular style. Within the Matsubara Ryu, the tradition is to appoint soke-dai that are within the family, and the eldest would be the one to succeed. If no one in the family is capable, then a soke-daihyo is appointed to keep things going while someone within the family is being groomed to take the position.

    By the way- if not Soke-dai, then what, in your experience is the title given to the next in line, so that there is no confusion as to the successor?

    ----------------------------------------------------------
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    "I should also point out that there is no definitive, single "correct" usage in Japan (still, I've never seen "soke-dai" to mean "heir apparent"). Different schools have differing traditions."
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Here I would certainly agree. I am just beginning to learn about other styles of Nihon Bujutsu (I've been submerged in Yamagata Ryu and Matsubara Ryu) and am astounded at how much is considered conventional wisdom concerning different styles. In my post, I was only trying to lend validity to an expression that I am familiar with. I didn't expect to get blasted for it :-) I think there are too many people looking for rules and absolute traditions between and among ryu, where there might not be any. As a matter of Nihongo and the usage of Soke-dai - what can I say, I've heard Japanese soke use it, and the definition fits.

    I hope I didn't offend you with my post. You seem to be very knowledgeable. I do think, however, that no matter how much time you've spent in Japan, there could still be very many ryu whose traditions and use of terminology you haven't even touched on (That sounded a little pretentious on my part- sorry). You've admitted as much, I think you're just concerned that some Gaikokujin made 'soke-dai' up (a valid concern for sure). Perhaps this is an obscure use of the word in Japan that spread like wild fire after being used only once in America. Who can say?

    Best wishes,

    Jason Backlund
    Kobushin Kai
    Yamagata Ryu Bujutsu, Matsubara Ryu Bujutsu

    [Edited by Jason Backlund on 07-06-2000 at 12:07 AM]

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    Hi Jason.

    First off, sorry if it seemed that I "flamed" you -- didn't mean to sound that way.

    The first time I heard the term soke-dai, it was used by Matsubara Isao (late soke of the Matsubara Ryu) to designate his nephew Matsubara Saburo as his successor.
    Well, it's a new one on me -- but as I alluded to, my knowledge is fairly short-based. I've only encountered this with Americans.

    By the way- if not Soke-dai, then what, in your experience is the title given to the next in line, so that there is no confusion as to the successor?
    Unfortunately, Nakamura sensei hasn't, so it's likely to be a blood bath after he crosses "Sanzu no Kawa." But your's is a good question -- hopefully someone will be able to provide an answer (I'm still in the learning phase).

    "DAI, generation, price; ka(wari), substitute, deputy, compensation, exchange; ka(waru), to take the place of, to relieve; yo, generation, the age, the reign"
    Well -- I capitulate. Dr. Nelson gives the same (#364) --

    By the way- in this same dictionary, there are 31 kanji which are pronounced "Sei," non of which are directly defined as "generation."
    Try Nelson's #97 -- the second part of "nisei." Have seen a copy of Nakayama Hakudo's eimeiroku in which he identifies himself as "juhachi sei" [soke implied].

    I do think, however, that no matter how much time you've spent in Japan, there could still be very many ryu whose traditions and use of terminology you haven't even touched on
    You are so correct. Today has been a good lesson re "soke-dai" which I will take into consideration (and investigate a bit more). It's good to see you posting -- Did you just join e-budo? How about a little information about yourself? You appear to have more than a passing knowledge of Japanese -- did you formally study and/or live in Japan?

    I look forward to hearing more from you.

    Regards,
    Guy

    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  15. #45
    Jason Backlund Guest

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    Hello Guy,

    Yes, I did just join e-budo, and I'm having a lot of fun. Especially reading about that GM Soke world champion Soto person. Think there is any chance that his mistery kanji could be a poorly written jo/ue/kami, and that maybe he mistook the kami for the one that reads deity or god? After all, it's the one title he has left to claim :-)

    Anyway, I had a chance to look at your Kenshinkan dojo website. I'm impressed. I've heard great things about Nakamura sensei. Didn't he appear in the documentary 'Budo?'

    As for me- I began studying Matsubara Ryu Bujutsu when I was eight years old in Orlando. My teacher was a Matsubara Ryu Soke Daihyo by the name of Yamagata Takashi. He became like a father figure to me. I was his uke and primary student while he was developing his own brand of kenjutsu and goshinjutsu. Originally, we thought it would be Yamagata Ha Matsubara Ryu Bujutsu, but as it turned out, Matsubara Isao insisted that it was unique enough to be simply Yamagata Ryu Bujutsu.

    As for Japan- my dad is half Japanese, the son of a serviceman and my late grandmother Okano Yoshiko (I guess this makes me quarter Japanese, but it doesn't show). I've been to Japan three times to visit family (which rarely helps my Japanese, since they all want to practice English), and have trained at the former Matsubara dojo, and once with an Aikido club in Kamakura. It's a great place to visit, but I like it just a little better here.

    Best wishes,

    Jason Backlund
    Kobushin Kai
    Yamagata Ryu Bujutsu, Matsubara Ryu Bujutsu

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