Koru Passai? or Passai Qua

[twayman]

Rob,

I do see your point and I am not questioning Mr. Silvan but, since I am trying to find answers and I have no founded opinion in reference to the kata or it’s bunkai. I am just throwing out my two cents and trying to find answers.

You practice bo, don't you? Do you really think that with your experience with bo that someone without a bo has a chance, really?

Yes, I do practice the bo and I have to disagree. I believe that a skilled unarmed individual does have a chance against a bo, at least a better chance that an unskilled individual. Just having bo experience gives an unarmed person some chance. Ie… you know they may thrust, may swing, attack the hands not the bo, stop the bo before any momentum is built, watch both sides of the bo, ect… The list goes on. I will agree that the odds are not good but defiantly better than just standing there. As for the kata I have no clue and since it is such a… how should I say it … not mainstream kata, I can only go by what I am finding out. I don’t think it is unheard of to address bo vs. unarmed, and it would make sense that if these techniques do in fact exist they would be in a kata to pass on.

Really, I find it hard to believe that Masters of old would see someone with a bo and just accept the fact that they would be struck down and not try to defeat the attacker. The prevailing individual would pass on the technique, hence kata.

I guess this all comes to: I don’t know.

Is it feasible to defend against a bo? I think so.

Is Koryu Passai the kata that holds the technique? I don’t know. It might be in time I may discover some of the bunkai and find it to work against the bo, then again maybe not.

Just my 2 cents.

[Blackwood]

First, let me say that this type of conversation is what makes the money I spend for an internet connection well worth the price!

I have a tape of the bunkai for Koryu Bassai done by the instructors who (attempted to teach) taught the kata to us. It does not use a bo in the attack. However, the technique would work against someone that is basically swinging it as a club. From the techniques I've been taught against weapons, the key attack point is normally the hand/arm holding the weapon. And the bunkai shows the "bo block" as an arm bar against the attacker.

Mr. Estrada's point is well made, that many senior practitioners seem to avoid or evade questions regarding history. I can usually get one question in, get an answer and then the subject is changed or it is time to go do something else. I have just a miniscule fraction of the experience Ernie has, so my sample base is considerably smaller than his.

So, Ernie, when is the book coming out?

[Ernest]

Greetings and Salutations,

First of all, arrrggggg!!!, just a small fact about Okinawans. They do get p.o. over little things that we (Americans and/or Republicans) cannot fathom. One time I mentioned in a story a little gossip about a younger Okinawan practitioner, who was very miffed that I mentioned his name. I then asked what was he so upset with, he had told several of us the story with great gusto and what I had written about was true (as it was based on what was told to me)... well, it appeared that certain other Okinawans did not agree with all the facts of the story and did not wanted the story repeated. He was miffed that I had not asked his permission. He got over it - it took about three years. To this day, he will clam up if I even look like I'm going to write something down.

My interest - even to this day - were the dojo storming that was done in Okinawa during the 1950's and early 1960's. Also, the tomb fighting that took place (these were challenge matches where the individuals involved went to the Okinawan tombs to have their "discussion."). Many well known practitioners took part in these "discussions." Confrontations were not only limited to karate people but judo people and street fighters. The most famous ones I have written down involving Motobu, Gusukuma, Miyagi, Kyan, Matsumura, Tokuda, Chibana, and especially Kinjo Kensei who was quite famous for his fights with the yakuza shortly after the end of hostilities.

More modern stories that were told to me are centered around bouncers for the bars AND for the politicians. It was considered very appropriate for individuals running for public office to recruit martial trained individuals for protection. While the other party would also recruit other martial practitioners and use them to cause havoc at the ralleys. Now those are great stories because they involve present day individuals that are very recognizable.

With a nod and wink (monty python style), I remain,

Ernest (a former practitioner of the Green Druid Fighting Society and senior practitioner of the Michigan Chicken Dance)

[Ernest]

Greetings,

I should apologize for the above reply... some people may take offense to my matter-of-fact ramblings/statements and for that I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone. Many people like to write historical stuff about who train here or there and who this individual trained with and stuff like that. To me, these old time practitioners were real people and I looked for the stories that made them real - that gave them character... as they use to say in the military, "yeah, they put on one shoe at a time, just like me." As I see it, the stories of what they did - both good and bad - are very interesting to me - again, its the flavour of their character. Many of these senior practitioners are put on pedestles - I, on the other hand, tell the stories of fighting in the red light district with Portugese sailors, with American whalers and with Spanish swordsmen. These are the stories that many are reluctant to tell for fear that people will see these practitioners as being all too human - much like us.

Again, I apologize for my ramblings and hopefully you will forgive me for being too familiar...

I remain your servant,

Ernest

[Shorin Ryuu]

Greetings and Salutations Mr Todd and Mr Shorin Ryuu,

The Nippon Karatedoh Rengokai wrote a book on the history of the patsai form including picture by picture description of each one referenced kata. The patsai forms that were covered included the following (in its respective order): Chibana no patsai, Tawada no patsai, Matsumura no patsai, Tomari no patsai, Matsumora no patsai (number 1 & 2), Kyan no patsai, Motobu no patsai, Ishimine no patsai, Itosu no patsai, and ending with Funakoshi's kata referred to as Shotokan no patsai.

Sensei Estrada,

Are the pictures in that book pictures of particular masters doing the kata or drawings? I was curious if Chibana was doing kata in the pictures and if the pictures were different than the ones in Nakasone's Karatedo Taikan (which I just got the other day and so nice to have). Are the stories you have written down available in book format or article format somewhere? Thanks in advance for helping out a Republican .

[Ernest]

Greetings,

Sorry, Chibana Dai Sensei is not doing the kata but one of his students is - off the top of my head I believe it was Shimabukuro Sensei (not Eizo). I could be wrong and since I just put the book away. I will look it up something this week end and let you know. All the people in the book are senior practitioners performing their respective kata and they all appear to be doing a good, solid rendition.

About the books detailing the stories, yes I did do a small run about 8 years ago. Most of my Canadian friends bought them. I have also received contacts from Japan, Deutschland, Espana, Israel and even the Republic of New Jersey that manage to get their hands on them.

A point about the Canadians - they are some of the most dedicated, resourceful and hard-core practitioners around. I have run into Canadians in the back roads of Nago looking for a dojo! I know several who have given up everything to go and live in Okinawa due to their love of Okinawan karate. A prime example is little Jimmy East who has been residing on the Rock for about six years dedicating himself to practice of gojuryu. He has turned from an awkward young man with big feet (the big feet are a give away, if the puppy has big feet, he'll turn out great) to a fine, smooth and powerful practitioner under the guidance of his teacher, Senaha Sensei. A note about his teacher, Senaha Sensei received his Hanshi Kyudan under the watchful eye of the late Yagi Meitoku Dai Sensei. Senaha Sensei is a prime example of an individual who is humble, dedicated and powerful with nothing to prove to anyone. He allowed me to interview him even though I was from a different style but we were all followers of the WAY. He even had me indulged in a drink of his homebrewed, sweet Okinawan wine called AWAMORI (which just about did me in, ouch). He welcomes everyone to his dojo and his hospitality is legendary. On leaving, he presented me with a pair of his homemade nunchaku. He is a handy woodworker.

The only individual who does have movies of Chibana Dai Sensei is Murakami Katsumi (who lives in Japan) and Mr Clarence Lee of San Fransico (who was a personal student of Chibana Dai Sensei. There is another one who has some films but he is reluctant to admit it even though he shows them on New Year.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Greetings,

Sorry, Chibana Dai Sensei is not doing the kata but one of his students is - off the top of my head I believe it was Shimabukuro Sensei (not Eizo). I could be wrong and since I just put the book away. I will look it up something this week end and let you know. All the people in the book are senior practitioners performing their respective kata and they all appear to be doing a good, solid rendition.

Interesting. I may have to look into getting this book.

About the books detailing the stories, yes I did do a small run about 8 years ago. Most of my Canadian friends bought them. I have also received contacts from Japan, Deutschland, Espana, Israel and even the Republic of New Jersey that manage to get their hands on them.

I would be interested in getting a copy. Do you know how I would go about doing this? At least the name would be helpful for employing google.

The only individual who does have movies of Chibana Dai Sensei is Murakami Katsumi (who lives in Japan) and Mr Clarence Lee of San Fransico (who was a personal student of Chibana Dai Sensei. There is another one who has some films but he is reluctant to admit it even though he shows them on New Year.

I've seen Mr. Lee's videos of Chibana (my instructor trained under him for a number of years). I was struck by how "more or less" the kata was identical in form, at least, to much of their current counterparts.

Pat Nakata in Hawaii has some films of Chibana that are several years more current than Mr. Lee's. From what I hear from my best friend who is training with him (Skeptic, on these boards), the difference is supposed to be night and day. I don't know if Nakata Sensei is the same one you are talking about. Supposedly Tsunami is going to be doing a video about Chibana? That may mean more circulation, perhaps.

But I would be interested in that book of yours, if possible.

Thank you again.

Edit: Oh yeah, that awamori is pretty interesting stuff...my current Japanese language maintenance teacher is from Okinawa and we had some at a gathering a while ago.

[Skeptical]

Been a long time since I've posted here, but I saw this and thought I'd make some comments.

First, Pat Nakata has videos of Chibana-sensei he captured on 8mm when he returned to Okinawa in 1965; he has recently transferred the video to DVD. Unfortunately, the only kata Chibana performed on the videos were Patsai Sho and Dai (Nakata is kicking himself every day for not asking Chibana-sensei to do all the kata). Even more unfortunate, he is somewhat guarded about sharing the video for fear that someone would get a hold of it and start trying to make money off it.

As far as the difference between the 1968 version Mr. Lee has and the 1965 version Mr. Nakata has is according to Mr. Nakata, Chibana was "a shell of his former self." During Mr. Lee's 1968 trip, Chibana's cancer had advanced rapidly, and he had weakened considerably. I've seen the 1965 movies, and Chibana appears quite vigorous for an old man - I haven't seen the 1968 version to make an adequate comparison. Mr. Nakata was very close to Chibana - he practically lived in the Chibana house for the year he spent in Okinawa and the Chibana family had adopted him as a "son" - so I would conjecture that his judgment on the 1968 video may be more of an emotional one of not being able to stand to see a father figure as he was shortly before his death.

Second, the various names of the versions of Patsai Dai in the Chibana-lineage (i.e., Tawada-Patsai, Chibana-Patsai) are a little meaningless. They are all the same kata - Matsumura Patsai - with little variation. As far as I know, Chibana made no modifications to the Patsai Dai he learned from Tawada, and accordingly, Tawada did not make any modifications from the Matsumura Patsai he learned. The only person in that lineage who made modifications to the Patsai kata was Itosu.

[Rob Alvelais]

No, they're not the same kata. While the performance lines of the forms are indeed quite similar, Matsumura Passai, Passai Dai, Passai Sho, Tomari Passai, Oyadomari Passai are all different. So, at the very least, the names mean something in terms of describing which form you're talking about.

Rob

Second, the various names of the versions of Patsai Dai in the Chibana-lineage (i.e., Tawada-Patsai, Chibana-Patsai) are a little meaningless. They are all the same kata - Matsumura Patsai - with little variation. As far as I know, Chibana made no modifications to the Patsai Dai he learned from Tawada, and accordingly, Tawada did not make any modifications from the Matsumura Patsai he learned. The only person in that lineage who made modifications to the Patsai kata was Itosu.

[Skeptical]

*smacks forehead*

Thanks, Rob, I should have been more specific. Of course the Tomari Patsai, Matsumura Patsai, and Itosu Patsai are different. I should have been more clear: Tawada-Patsai and Chibana-Patsai are not significantly different from Matsumura Patsai. These people-specific names in these two cases are meaningless. Tawada did not alter what he learned, and Chibana did not alter what he learned from Tawada. Perhaps there might differences based on physique and habit (Chibana was infamous for teaching someone to do a kata one way while doing it a different way himself because he had developed a habit - sometimes good, sometimes bad), but attaching the names "Chibana-Patsai" and "Tawada-Patsai" gives the impression that these two guys made up their own versions or made significant changes when in fact they did not. That would be tantamount to calling the Matsumura Patsai I do "Garrett-Patsai" if I were to teach it to someone else. We all do kata a little differently from each other, but if we are doing the same kata - Matsumura Patsai - it shouldn't be THAT different.

Cheers!

[Rob Alvelais]

TJ,

In a conversation I had with John Sells, he indicated:

Tawada Bassai = Matsumura Bassai (shito) = Passai Dai of Chibana Shorin Ryu (kobayashi)

Tawada Bassai is called Matsumura Bassai in Japan because of a mistake in publishing the kata 70 or more years ago.

upshot of conversation with Sells
You're saying that:

Chibana Passai = Tawada Bassai = Matsumura Bassai
= Passai Dai (kobayashi)?

Rob

*smacks forehead*

Thanks, Rob, I should have been more specific. Of course the Tomari Patsai, Matsumura Patsai, and Itosu Patsai are different. I should have been more clear: Tawada-Patsai and Chibana-Patsai are not significantly different from Matsumura Patsai. These people-specific names in these two cases are meaningless. Tawada did not alter what he learned, and Chibana did not alter what he learned from Tawada. Perhaps there might differences based on physique and habit (Chibana was infamous for teaching someone to do a kata one way while doing it a different way himself because he had developed a habit - sometimes good, sometimes bad), but attaching the names "Chibana-Patsai" and "Tawada-Patsai" gives the impression that these two guys made up their own versions or made significant changes when in fact they did not. That would be tantamount to calling the Matsumura Patsai I do "Garrett-Patsai" if I were to teach it to someone else. We all do kata a little differently from each other, but if we are doing the same kata - Matsumura Patsai - it shouldn't be THAT different.

Cheers!

[Skeptical]

Hey Rob,

More or less, I think that's it. I was confused after reading Sells's Unante and saw "Chibana-Patsai" and "Tawada-Patsai" so I asked Mr. Nakata. He indicated that the distinctions between them and Matsumura Patsai were minimal, and that when Chibana taught him Patsai Dai, he had not made any significant alterations to the kata. There might be some differences from developed habits between practicioners who then passed on their habits to their students, but all-in-all they should be roughly the same kata.

I'm going by what I've been told by Mr. Nakata who lived with and trained under Chibana, but that doesn't necessarily make John Sells incorrect whose research is vast and extensive. I wasn't alive back then, so I guess all I can do is shrug my shoulders and say, "That's what I heard."

Speaking of Sells, you had a chance to meet him? That sounds awesome. I'd love to meet him and chew the fat with him, so to speak, about his research for a project I'm thinking about doing.

Cheers!

[Shorinman]

First, Pat Nakata has videos of Chibana-sensei he captured on 8mm when he returned to Okinawa in 1965; he has recently transferred the video to DVD. Unfortunately, the only kata Chibana performed on the videos were Patsai Sho and Dai (Nakata is kicking himself every day for not asking Chibana-sensei to do all the kata). Even more unfortunate, he is somewhat guarded about sharing the video for fear that someone would get a hold of it and start trying to make money off it.

May I politely ask do you know whether or not Mr. Nakata provided a copy to the Okinawa Government or the Prefectural Board of Education?

Respectfully,
Larry

[Shooter16a2]

I have seen many versions of the Passai kata and found that most are very similar. I have a copy of the late Masanobu Kina performing a version of Shimabuku Passai. I was told that this form comes from the Shimabuku village area and is actually written down in their town hall. I was told that Masanobu Kina had learned the form from his uncle, Peichin Kina.
Another version of Passai that I have seen done was by Seiki Arakaki was Nishihara Passai. Again this is a village kata. The interesting thing is that the major moves seem to be there but the order is a little different.
Edward A. Harper

[Skeptical]

May I politely ask do you know whether or not Mr. Nakata provided a copy to the Okinawa Government or the Prefectural Board of Education?

Respectfully,
Larry

Larry,

I don't think so. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure if Mr. Lee or Mr. Murakami even thought of doing so.

Cheers!