Is seiza a "healthy" position?

[A. Bakken]

While seiza may be helpful for training good upper body posture, it obstructs the blood flow to the legs if sitting for longer periods of time. Is this something that can be improved with training - i.e. will the problems associated with seiza diminish over time, and the benefits increase? Is it healthy to sit in seiza for, say, 10-15 minutes each day?

[mews]

hmmmm... I have a knee problem, so take everything I say on seiza knowing that -

I took me a LOOOOONG time to be able to sit in seiza - I was 'late nidan' in my karate before I could. I had to get the knee flexible, then flexible and weight-bearing on a cushioned surface, then on the floor....

I sometimes find it quite comfortable - IF I've been doing it regularly. if not - ouch! and I slide off to the side, or sit cross-legged.

I actually like to sit in seiza, and start leaning back - a nice quad stretch.
I keep sitting on my heels, and keep going back - ow! oo! EE!
elbows, then head and shoulders, on the floor.
getting up from that can be quite amusing

I would think that - if you don't have knee problems - 10 -15 minutes in seiza wouldn't hurt you.

mew

[Daniel Son]

But why? What does sitting in this position do for you. What purpose for self defense is sitting in Seiza?

[saru1968]

its a kamae.

you should feel 'able' 'free' to moved from any position.

:-)

[Trevor Johnson]

I would like to point out one thing about seiza, which is the reason that I don't do it regularly.

If you look at the structure of the upper leg when in seiza, you will notice that it looks just like a lever.


Knee------------------------------Weight on buttocks
-------------[Fulcrum]--------------------------foot

The fulcrum, which is provided by your bulging calf muscles and hamstrings, causes an upward pull on the knee. This is then countered by the connective tissue of the knee, which can be stretched by the force. Such connective tissue is only so elastic, and when stretched too far, does not return. When torn, it will never fully heal the way a muscle will. In other words, your knees will become much more flexible due to tissue damage. While this is not an issue when you are young, as all those bulging muscles hold the knee together, you will feel it as you age.

[nicojo]

Knee------------------------------Weight on buttocks

Except that you shouldn't have your weight on buttocks; instead you should be slightly flexing your thigh muscles and keeping your spine straight so that your weight is positioned in between your buttocks and knees. Your pelvis should be tilted slightly so that your lower back is flat. There should not be stress or weight on either the knees or heels. Weight is over muscle mass, not over joints or bone. I think correct position, which is not often taught overtly, alleviates the stress on knees ligaments--at least it hurts less and I can sit longer when I am doing it right.

You are correct to say that this bad weight position can stress the knees of course. I think that most Japanese are taught how to sit correctly, but it may not trickle down to non-Japanese students if there are many non-Japanese teachers along the way.

But why? What does sitting in this position do for you. What purpose for self defense is sitting in Seiza?

Since this is a "Health" forum, I won't go into it, but you should read some of the discussions in the sword arts. It is a good question Mr. Bakken has because of the potential health concerns, but as far as the "Why" that has been endlessly discussed already.

[Aikinorth]

But why? What does sitting in this position do for you. What purpose for self defense is sitting in Seiza?

I think seiza serves several purposes. For me, doing a good deal of suwariwaza teaches my body, in clearest terms, when my center is at work and when it is not; when I am "underneath" the technique, or not. In that respect, I find it invaluable. The other, of course, is as mentioned elsewhere - I find it builds confidence and flexibility of mind.

Paul

[Brian Owens]

...What purpose for self defense is sitting in Seiza?

I thought I'd add something here.

Seiza means "Correct Sitting." It was considered "correct" by the Ogasawara, who set the tone for proper ettiquette in their day. It is not a martial arts oriented kamae, it's just how people would often sit.

So the reason self-defense applications of traditional martial arts are practiced from seiza is the same as the reason modern self-defense methods might be practiced sitting in a chair or while driving a car; because it's a position you might well find yourself in when the need for defense arises.

[Andrew S]

One source tells me that seiza was popularized by the tea ceremony cult - you needed to be kneeling to fit more than 2 bodies into a four-and-a-half tatami tea room.
Zen influence spread the practice into the samurai ranks, and it had another purpose there - by forbidding sitting cross-legged and running within castle grounds, the Tokugawa were able to check assassination attempts.

One of the more senior Aikido instructors in the world, Kobayashi Sensei, says, "If you can do it in seiza, you can do it standing."

Andrew

[J.T. Hurley]

Zen influence spread the practice into the samurai ranks, and it had another purpose there - by forbidding sitting cross-legged and running within castle grounds, the Tokugawa were able to check assassination attempts.

I'm not sure I understand the security reason behind insisting on kneeling rather than sitting cross-legged. Wouldn't a person in a kneeling seiza have better mobility and access to any weaponry he might be carrying than a person who was sitting?

[kimiwane]

I thought I'd add something here.

Seiza means "Correct Sitting." It was considered "correct" by the Ogasawara, who set the tone for proper ettiquette in their day. It is not a martial arts oriented kamae, it's just how people would often sit.

So the reason self-defense applications of traditional martial arts are practiced from seiza is the same as the reason modern self-defense methods might be practiced sitting in a chair or while driving a car; because it's a position you might well find yourself in when the need for defense arises.

I think seiza is used in Japanese martial arts (not Chinese, to my knowledge) because it is a very natural way to sit. Even American toddlers will naturally sit in seiza without training.

I also think there is some misconception about the meaning of "sei" as "correct". I don't think "sei" refers to any external standard of what is correct, but more to something like "true" as in "true nature."

A child who is allowed to develop properly will naturally stand straight and tall. They will naturally sit on their knees in seiza when they are able to sit up. And they will sit perfectly straight in this way. Doing this, they are expressing "sei" before they can talk and before anyone can teach them what sei is.

Sei means correct expression of true nature. It's based on the belief that all humans have a universal basic nature. People who do what is natural are always "correct" in that way. So in that way, I think seiza means something close to "natural sitting".

It is culture that teaches out the inclination, then the ability, to sit in seiza.

Best wises,

[Brian Owens]

Hmm. That's an interesting perspective.

I don't recall ever seeing any toddlers that I've been around sitting in anything resembling seiza, but I don't have children of my own and my time with my nephews and niece has been sporadic.

I have seen many children naturally sit in a pretty good full- or half-lotus though.

[Mekugi]

I think seiza is used in Japanese martial arts (not Chinese, to my knowledge) because it is a very natural way to sit. Even American toddlers will naturally sit in seiza without training.

Most of the origins of seiza seem to come from the advent and popularity of tatami. One would probably not sit this way in dirt (and from what I inderstand, didn't.)

[hyaku]

It is culture that teaches out the inclination, then the ability, to sit in seiza.
Best wises,

But my thoughts on this do not come from doing this a few times a week but every day. The very fact that people here are discussing it is a million miles away from Japanese action. I am not looking at Japan through rose coloured glasses.

But what I see is a country of sometimes (most of the time) sheep-like people bound by a very tight regimen, mainly because they know no different. I will have to drag up my Saturday work up again to make an example.

Three years ago Saturday working was stopped. But we still go an sit there doing nothing apart from few a feeble activity attempts. No one has the idea, inclination, mindset whatever to do anything else. There is also a common trend now to describe retired men as Sodai gomi (Very large refuse). Women have retired husband syndrome, or RHS. Fear of husbands coming home to roost has become a hot topic in Japan.

The thing is.... and I see it nearly everyday intermixing with 1500 people, most Japanese do things like this because they are told they must do it not because they think its natural. There reaction is an unquestionable zombie like reaction that turns into the problems shown above. There is no thought whatsoever of culture and inclination when people are told to "sit in seiza". From a point of view of health I don't see it as a question of who can do it and who cant. The sooner Japanese get off the damn floor and onto chairs the better. Much the same as putting a baby on the floor and not turning it I don't think we should restrict growth in young people.

Japanese people do think and sometimes say in private what we write here. But question the system and talk about it democratically and openly?....

Seiza has a place and a time. I have to help the old lady into her house next door because she has sat on the floor far to long. The OAP centre got her a chair. Phys Ed and rehabilitation people I have a respect for. They have been educated not to do it.

[Aikinorth]

I think seiza is used in Japanese martial arts (not Chinese, to my knowledge) because it is a very natural way to sit. Even American toddlers will naturally sit in seiza without training...

In the case of our 4 year old boy at least, absolutely true. I don't know if it's because he's seen his old man sit like this far too much, or because it's just his choice. I suspect the latter. He does it while doing most activities - eating, watching Sponge Bob, drawing, whatever...

Paul