Is seiza a "healthy" position?

[hyaku]

Oh
I forgot to mention that i have just spent the past year living in Toyoshiki, Chiba Ken with my wife (Japanese from the Fujiyama/Hino family) in addition I have 'visited Japan 25 times during the past 20 years studying Budo/Ninpo, Japanese medicine, Aikido, Ju-jutsu, Karate, etc...
Regarding swallowing the phlegm...Ughh bad habit
Acording to Takamatsu sensei "Phlegm is a toxin that should be spat out!"
Chris Roworth

Did he say where they should spit it?

Ive just sent the last 25 years studying and observing Japanese culture in general. My family were the Shima no kami Tomokade named Hyakutake by the Lord Ryuzoji. I have also done a bit of budo for around forty years.

[kuri]

Hi All
Souds to me like Spitting has become more important than Seiza
But I will take up the thread!
Hi Hyakutake Colin
Good to hear that we all share a simmilar interest!
As a point of reference I have not had a cold for 20+ years and neither has any of my teachers!
If you want to avoid colds - sit in seiza (with toes tucked under) and stimulate (Not by vibrator - i know many people associate stimualute in different ways!) but by strikes (Fudoken) to Lung one (Anterior shoulder area) like a 'gorilla' for about 30 strikes each side, then take 9 deep breaths in through the nose and out through the mouth. Next - Stimulate (Rub) Lung 7 (Right wrist male - left wrist female) for about 30 seconds followed by Kidney 6 (medial ankle) (Right female - left male) for 30 seconds!

Drink plenty of water every day and avoid mucous foods (Sugar, Choc's and dairy products) and wash yourself daily using cold water!

For the unfortunate people who did not learn Budo medicine! If you get a cold, spit in a glass - stimulate the 8 mysterious flows, relax on tennis balls (traditionally 'Te no maki) for 15 minutes and then walk on the toes whilst holding your breath. I know it sounds weird! It's in the scrolls - and i can verify this as a fantastic treatment - it has been demonstrated at more than 3 major teaching hospitals in the UK!

But to continue.....
Try Seiza sitting on the toes every day for 21 days and notice the difference it makes to your health!

I do not know if the editors/watch dogs will approve this but as a retired 'doctor' i will be willing to answer simmilar questions regarding health! I should say that i have NO political allegience - but many years of experince that i am willing to share. I do not care if you do one martial art or 100 arts!

Chris Roworth

[hyaku]

All sounds good to me. All we have do now is convince Japanese people this is good.

I live in a city that has the worlds highest rate of stomach cancer and the most dentists per capita in Japan. Seems quite a few people here could do with a bit more healthy eating and living. I would not touch some of the stuff they consume all too often.

What I can say for Japanese medicine is the kampo yaku (Chinese herbal medicines) my doctor gives me now and then work as well if not better that modern drugs.

Rubbing different wrists and ankles for male and female sounds interesting. Why is this? In the early 1700's a a Japanese doctor states that years before men and women were treated differently for ailments and that men were becoming more feminine. Is this related?

[kuri]

Yep I agree
After many years in Japan I am shocked at how little the Japanese understand budo, their culture, medicine and the gift's they have (but it is the same with many cultures) Regarding Left/right it is very difficult to be brief but the left SI3 (Below the little finger) is a Yin (Jap- In point) with its corresponding LU7 (Lung 7 point) located on the right! SI3 relates to the spine (Governing vessel) whilst LU7 (Right relates to the conception vessel) I hope i am not confusing you?

Therefore Men utilise right points but they have to balance them with female points! I am sorry early in this thread I did say i do not want to get technical!

I only wanted to point out the use of seiza and where it came from!

However - i do not know if this can be done? I am willing to answer these type of aquestions (provided they are within reason) to each and everyone, because they are important to everyone studying Budo (regardless of style, affiliation, politics etc...) SO I CAN GIVE YOU A MORE DETAILED ANSWER BUT WE WOULD NEED TO START AT A BEGGINING POINT!

Having studied western medicine, Chinese, Japanese and other 'systems' there is a common ground! For example Tao te Ching - "One becomes 2 etc.. can be related to cells - hope I'm not going too fast! Anyway if a cell divides and divides this can explain 'jinglo' theory - which relates to the 8 flows and the background for Ion particle flow of the 8 flows! Sorry - i already know i am becoming technical - but just a moment, please!

So in male cells (Cells are male and female - sperm/egg) the tendency is to the right and above, female has a tendency to be left and lower! Simple Ne!

To cut it short try this which i have demonstrated in lectures many times (male!) Bend forwards and touch your toes. Then rub your left Small intestine 3 (Just below the little finger of the left hand) (You can look it up on Acupuncture points on the web!) then rub your right lung 7 (Inside of the wrist) then touch your toes again - a fantastic change!

In reverse - using the Kyushu (As opposed to the tsubo) these points can weaken the spine, which is why many 'arts' strike the inside of the wrist!

Anyway good luck
Chris Roworth

[kuri]

I do not know if this will get through?
But it is a genuine offer!

I originally found 'myself' on this forum and looking at Seiza by accident! But maybe thats Karma - on reading the postings i was suprised (Not really!) on how little people understand the deeper and 'hidden' meanings of Kamae/postures. Like most of you I love BUdo (Really love it) and i have spent most of my life studying many styles etc...

When i was 15 i had an accident - injured my back and when i was 21 became involved in tai-chi/chi gung and aikido - to cut a long story short i learned 12 western therapies, japanese and chinese medicine and got a 'few' years experince in different martial arts!

Pearsonally i have no 'further' need og grades, diplomas etc.. I am 'Retired' but i do wish that someone had told me what i now know (limited as it is) what i now know!

As for budo techniques - ask your teacher - as for the medical effects i think i know them!

Please feel free to e-mail me (regardless of stylyle association etc...) Oh if any political questions come - i will not answer them. my email (can i give it? is chrisamatsu@hotmail.com)

Hope this helps all of us in the budoka way
Chris Roworth

[kimiwane]

I thought I'd add something here.

Seiza means "Correct Sitting." It was considered "correct" by the Ogasawara, who set the tone for proper ettiquette in their day. It is not a martial arts oriented kamae, it's just how people would often sit.

So the reason self-defense applications of traditional martial arts are practiced from seiza is the same as the reason modern self-defense methods might be practiced sitting in a chair or while driving a car; because it's a position you might well find yourself in when the need for defense arises.

I think seiza is used in Japanese martial arts (not Chinese, to my knowledge) because it is a very natural way to sit. Even American toddlers will naturally sit in seiza without training.

I also think there is some misconception about the meaning of "sei" as "correct". I don't think "sei" refers to any external standard of what is correct, but more to something like "true" as in "true nature."

A child who is allowed to develop properly will naturally stand straight and tall. They will naturally sit on their knees in seiza when they are able to sit up. And they will sit perfectly straight in this way. Doing this, they are expressing "sei" before they can talk and before anyone can teach them what sei is.

Sei means correct expression of true nature. It's based on the belief that all humans have a universal basic nature. People who do what is natural are always "correct" in that way. So in that way, I think seiza means something close to "natural sitting".

It is culture that teaches out the inclination, then the ability, to sit in seiza.

Best wises,

[Brian Owens]

Hmm. That's an interesting perspective.

I don't recall ever seeing any toddlers that I've been around sitting in anything resembling seiza, but I don't have children of my own and my time with my nephews and niece has been sporadic.

I have seen many children naturally sit in a pretty good full- or half-lotus though.

[Mekugi]

They can comfortably drop into unko zawari (a deep squat) and have their backsides just a few centimeters from the floor.

No matter how many times I hear this phrase, it still makes me laugh. I guess I am far more sophomoric than most. English equivalent: Poop sit.

[Mekugi]

I think seiza is used in Japanese martial arts (not Chinese, to my knowledge) because it is a very natural way to sit. Even American toddlers will naturally sit in seiza without training.

Most of the origins of seiza seem to come from the advent and popularity of tatami. One would probably not sit this way in dirt (and from what I inderstand, didn't.)

[hyaku]

It is culture that teaches out the inclination, then the ability, to sit in seiza.
Best wises,

But my thoughts on this do not come from doing this a few times a week but every day. The very fact that people here are discussing it is a million miles away from Japanese action. I am not looking at Japan through rose coloured glasses.

But what I see is a country of sometimes (most of the time) sheep-like people bound by a very tight regimen, mainly because they know no different. I will have to drag up my Saturday work up again to make an example.

Three years ago Saturday working was stopped. But we still go an sit there doing nothing apart from few a feeble activity attempts. No one has the idea, inclination, mindset whatever to do anything else. There is also a common trend now to describe retired men as Sodai gomi (Very large refuse). Women have retired husband syndrome, or RHS. Fear of husbands coming home to roost has become a hot topic in Japan.

The thing is.... and I see it nearly everyday intermixing with 1500 people, most Japanese do things like this because they are told they must do it not because they think its natural. There reaction is an unquestionable zombie like reaction that turns into the problems shown above. There is no thought whatsoever of culture and inclination when people are told to "sit in seiza". From a point of view of health I don't see it as a question of who can do it and who cant. The sooner Japanese get off the damn floor and onto chairs the better. Much the same as putting a baby on the floor and not turning it I don't think we should restrict growth in young people.

Japanese people do think and sometimes say in private what we write here. But question the system and talk about it democratically and openly?....

Seiza has a place and a time. I have to help the old lady into her house next door because she has sat on the floor far to long. The OAP centre got her a chair. Phys Ed and rehabilitation people I have a respect for. They have been educated not to do it.

[Aikinorth]

I think seiza is used in Japanese martial arts (not Chinese, to my knowledge) because it is a very natural way to sit. Even American toddlers will naturally sit in seiza without training...

In the case of our 4 year old boy at least, absolutely true. I don't know if it's because he's seen his old man sit like this far too much, or because it's just his choice. I suspect the latter. He does it while doing most activities - eating, watching Sponge Bob, drawing, whatever...

Paul

[kimiwane]

In the case of our 4 year old boy at least, absolutely true. I don't know if it's because he's seen his old man sit like this far too much, or because it's just his choice. I suspect the latter. He does it while doing most activities - eating, watching Sponge Bob, drawing, whatever...

Paul

I was watching my one-year-old do it today.

He also sits in the "half-seiza", sort of off to one side.

He doesn't keep any position for long, but changes up, moves, moves, moves. But seiza is one of the natural points he sometimes rests in. It's stable, at least. He's still unsteady in a lot of movements, but he can rest stably in seiza.

I first started noticing this about 10 years ago--that all budo is rooted in the movements of toddlers, when they're just learning to walk.

Someone mentioned earlier that the Japanese don't sit in seiza in dirt, but babies will. It's culture that makes them not sit in seiza in dirt, and that makes Americans stop sitting in seiza.

I still spend a good bit of time in seiza. Even if my wife didn't give me seaweed for breakfast every day, I would sit in seiza a lot.

Not that the Japanese haven't overdone it. We used to sit in seiza interminably after classes when sensei felt like giving us a lecture on Jigoro Kano or Morihei Ueshiba. Yes, and old people can get too much of it.

I think we should do like Zen says, have minds like babies, and move when we feel like moving.

Best to all.

[hyaku]

No doubt about it Japanese feel happy on the floor. A lot of people I know don't like socks and shoes. The guy at the desk next to me gets his socks off as soon as he arrives summer and winter. They cant wait to get barefoot at every available opportunity. It's a real "Down to earth" be one with nature attitude for some.

I spend lots of time in S.E Asia. Peak season is New Year. Everyones out scuba diving, swimming, sunbathing in the daytime. In the evening partying sitting around on chairs drinking and eating, intermingling, people ｆrom all over the world chatting away, communicating. This of course includes the locals.

Where are the Japanese? All squatting on the ground outside the Japanese shop! Occasionaly the conversation goes, "What are you going to do tonight?" Sometimes one says, "Ah tonight I am going to go out and mix with the gaijin" (Of course gaijin means 'outsider' and they are themselves outside? But that's another story).

Same with foreign seminars. We are all put up in a posh hotel. Of course being one of the from Japan contingent I should go have food with them in their room Chairs are tables are moved, newspapers are spread on the floor and we all sit their to eat.

Reminds me a bit of the story of a homeless African family newly arrived in the UK and put in temporary accomodation. After a week someone went to check on them. They had chopped up the furniture and ripped up the floor. for firewood and all sat on the floor in the middle of the room. I see the same thing in Cairo airport. People pasing through the airport often all sit in a circle on the floor and put the luggage on the chairs.

Maybe I should not make comparisons.

Japanese keep very much keep to themselves. I am all for seiza but at times its feels to me like they should come up onto the chairs and join us rather than we get down there to them.

[kimiwane]

Japanese keep very much keep to themselves. I am all for seiza but at times its feels to me like they should come up onto the chairs and join us rather than we get down there to them.

My wife teaches at a Saturday school for Japanese children living here in the US while their parents (invariably the father, of course) work at the local Japanese companies.

Last weekend we taikai, outdoors, where everyone came from all the companies and the kids played various games.

We bought a plastic tarp to sit on, but when we got there, most of the Japanese had camp chairs to sit on. My wife and I were among the few people sitting directly on the tarp without chairs!!

You never know what those folks are going to do!

[Mekugi]

Japanese keep very much keep to themselves. I am all for seiza but at times its feels to me like they should come up onto the chairs and join us rather than we get down there to them.

You simply must write a book on this Colin. Not only would it be an interesting glimpse into a different culture for many, but a REAL glimpse into the sociology of Japan as it actually exists and not as many people "think it should exist." (Not mentioning any names here..) It would be a refreshing break from the usual business goon writing about the wonders of Honshin Kanri that is for sure.