Hello Jan,
It is very interesting to see how perceptions differ. If you don't mind, I am going to intrude once more in the SK forum and I would like to go through your post bit by bit.
Originally Posted by
JL.
Gassho!
One thing that seems to me worth discussing in an Aikido-Shorinij Kempo thread (and that I know something about myself) are rolls. I think they're also a good example to show differences and similarities between the two arts:
PAG. In aikido the normal Japanese expression for a roll is ukemi (receiving body). However, in English it is customary to distinguish between rolls and breakfalls (German?). For me, a roll is exactly as you describe in your next paragraph. In its most basic form there is contact with with the mat along a line from the hands, wrists, arms, shoulders, back (diagonally) hips, thighs, until the person rises. And you can do the same roll backwards. With a breakfall, on the other hand, there is less continuous contact of the body with the tatami. There is a flip and the person actually loses contact with the ground and then lands on the ground. Is there a similar distinction in SK?
Originally Posted by
JL.
Aikido rolls are very soft and round. They're aimed at giving the least resistance when touching the ground thus using the impetus from the fall to get up again. This is definitely extremely fast, effective and good-looking. Shorinji Kempo rolls on the other hand take most of the impetus of the fall away with the hands/arms before making a more controlled roll with some power of one's own..
PAG. In aikido I think this depends on the attack and also on the throw. For example, there is a famous 8th dan Japanese shihan named Isoyama whose speciality is a throw called kataguruma, or ganseki otoshi. In the reverse form of this, the attacker ends up braced over tori's shoulders, facing upwards, and the only way of avoiding injury is to bring the knees up to one's chest, do a backward flip and attempt to stand upright. This type of ukemi seems to me close to what I have seen in SK demonstrations at Hiroshima University (by the guys wearing the black tunics, not the beginners). In the non-reverse form of this throw the attacker is thrown up and over the shoulders, facing downwards, and is dropped straight down. I would think you would have similar shoulder throws in SK.
Originally Posted by
JL.
The basic difference in the ideas behind the rolls is, IMHO, the attack: in Aikido the roll is mostly used to escape being driven into the ground by a throw, whereas in Shorinji Kempo we assume an attack like being pushed from behind and turn after the roll to face the attacker..
PAG. I think that there are some techniques in aikido where it is sometimes difficult to escape being driven into the ground by the throw. Do you have a technique in SK called shiho nage? In this throw you can set up the architecture of the throw to focus on the shoulder or on the elbow and this focus will determine the type of roll or breakfall possible. If it is from the shoulder, it is highly likely that the throw will be straight down.
Originally Posted by
JL.
The main difference in the effect of the rolls is, again IMHO, that while Aikido rolls work fantastic on soft floors and if done well very good on hard even floors they're not something I'd want to do on, say, gravel or anything that might just have the occasional stone or whatever to break my spine when hitting into it with a lot of speed. Of course Aikido rolls also aim at making the time where the spine touches (or rolls over) the ground as short as possible, but it can't be completely avoided..
PAG. Yes. I understand this. When I was younger and more foolish I took part in a demonstration in the USA. It was designed to show that aikido could be practised effectively by women, so the attackers were all men. There were no real tatami and the floor was concrete. I was the attacker for the kata guruma-type throws I mentioned above and this meant landing on concrete from a height of at least one metre. I was able to land effectively, i.e., land, get up and attack again, but I would have appreciated tatami.
Originally Posted by
JL.
The advantage of Aikido rolls I see in getting up very quickly, using as little time and energy as possible and the surprise effect of being in a completely different spot very quickly (instead of lying on the floor with a broken nose)..
PAG. Well, as I suggested, I think this depends on the attack and the architecture of the throw. I teach my own students to roll as 'economically' as possible and get up. But in aikido this is not always possible.
Originally Posted by
JL.
Any comments on that?.
PAG. Well, as a 'guest' I have given you a few. I hope that some SK members with a similar training history to mine (35 years of aikido, 6th dan, but feeling age creeping on) might give some opinions.
Originally Posted by
JL.
And an additional question/problem that came up in training from time to time: is it possible (and how) to stop someone being thrown with a Shorinji Kempo throw (say, Gyaku Gote) to roll away before being pinned?.
PAG. Is this throw also called kote-gaeshi? (See the similar threads in the aikido forum and my exchanges with Tony Leith.) In aikido kote-gaeshi is sometimes treated as a throw (nage waza), but fundamentally it is a nage-katame waza (a throw which ends in a pin). The throw focuses on pressure to the attacker's wrist and lower arm, but the pin should focus on the attacker's elbow. If the elbow is not controlled immediately after pressure is applied to the wrist, the attacker can roll out of the throw. There are many other issues here, but these are the most fundamental, in my opinion.
Perhaps it would be good to have a joint aikido/SK ukemi workshop.
Kesshu,
______ Jan.[/QUOTE]
Finally, you asked a question about Senior Moderators. I have been away teaching in Europe and so have been absent from E-Budo for a while. After I came back, I watched a very interesting discussion unfolding in the News from Japan forum, involving someone calling himself Haiyomi. Usually, moderators cannot intrude on the threads of other moderators, but occasionally, when John Lindsey has been away, some moderators have had this power. I gather that there were some software problems, and George Kohler also had family problems, so some moderators had 'senior moderator' powers. For some reason Joe Svinth could not moderate in his own forum, but I was able to do so (and moved some threads).
However, I think this is a temporary measure. I gather from George Kohler that John Lindsey is back from Iraq from a while and they will make whatever arrangements necessary to ease the burden on George while John is away.
So I am not really a Senior Moderator, rather a Moderator who is Senior (i.e., older than the rest).
Best regards to all
Last edited by P Goldsbury; 10th September 2005 at 12:31.
Peter Goldsbury,
Forum Administrator,
Hiroshima, Japan