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Thread: Aikido and ShorinjiKempo

  1. #31
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    On the subject of Ukemi-Waza on hard floors: I spent many a session as a yonkyu/sankyu wishing we were practicing Mae and Ushiro-ukemi on a lovely soft floor. Then I went for work experience during the summer to Brisbane, and trained with the club there.

    Their Dojo was carpeted, and some ukemi I saw were quite bad - I saw one guy about my grade (sankyu) kneeling down, rolling horizontally across his back, get back up. Since then I have cut down on my complaining about ukemi on hardwood floor(not completely, though... ).

    On Aikido ukemi: I attended an Aikido session last year, just to see what it was like, and found their ukemi to be virtually identical to ours. Of course, maybe I was just doing them wrong
    JC McCrae

  2. #32
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    Default 2x3=6?

    Gassho!

    Hmm, interesting question: how many Sandans does it take to make a Rokkudan (or to screw in a lightbulb)?

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

  3. #33
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    2:

    One to demonstrate how to screw it in,
    one to look at your bad technique and say, "No good".

    (not you specifically, Jan)
    JC McCrae

  4. #34
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    Default 2

    Gassho!

    I think two is indeed the right answer: one to hold the bulb into the socket and the other to scream: "Hidari, hidari, hidari, hidari..."

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

  5. #35
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    Default re. recent posts

    Actually that makes it 2...... John McCulloch is still alive and well and training in Canada.... actually Branch Master of a very prosperous (and aiming at world domination very soon ) branch in Toronto.
    I should perhaps have said training 'in Glasgow' - as I mentioned in my earlier post, I actually heard about the chequered history of the Glasgow club from Sensei John on one of his return visits to Glasgow, must have been the best part of ten years ago..

    from Peter:

    PAG. In aikido the normal Japanese expression for a roll is ukemi (receiving body). However, in English it is customary to distinguish between rolls and breakfalls (German?). For me, a roll is exactly as you describe in your next paragraph. In its most basic form there is contact with with the mat along a line from the hands, wrists, arms, shoulders, back (diagonally) hips, thighs, until the person rises. And you can do the same roll backwards. With a breakfall, on the other hand, there is less continuous contact of the body with the tatami. There is a flip and the person actually loses contact with the ground and then lands on the ground. Is there a similar distinction in SK?
    As Jan said, yes, there is such a distinction. In BSKF SK nomenclature at least, ukemi/breakfalls are the same thing, and denote the kind of rolls you describe (also recovery from the floor and cartwheels) - nage waza are the kind of throws where the person being thrown will genrally have to leave the floor as a result of the kind of leverage being applied etc.

    PAG. I think that there are some techniques in aikido where it is sometimes difficult to escape being driven into the ground by the throw. Do you have a technique in SK called shiho nage? In this throw you can set up the architecture of the throw to focus on the shoulder or on the elbow and this focus will determine the type of roll or breakfall possible. If it is from the shoulder, it is highly likely that the throw will be straight down.
    IMHO there are techniques in SK which if applied vigourously on an attacker lacking the knowledge of how to be compliant and be thrown, would probably result in dislocation or worse ( and then probably being driven into the ground..) Given that SK philosophy emphasises self defence ideally not casuing permanent damage to an attacker, this would not be an optimal outcome - but i submit probably better than the attacker being able tio do whatever it was they were trying to do to you originally.

    Oh yes, and from what I've seen of kote gaeshi and gyaku gote, they are very similar. A friend of mine who did aikido once spent an entertaining hour comparing notes ('Ow!' "We call that ikkyio' 'Interesting. We call it maki line' 'Yeow' 'Gyaku gote' 'Kote gasehi' and so on)

    Tony Leith

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jailess
    On the subject of Ukemi-Waza on hard floors: I spent many a session as a yonkyu/sankyu wishing we were practicing Mae and Ushiro-ukemi on a lovely soft floor. Then I went for work experience during the summer to Brisbane, and trained with the club there.

    Their Dojo was carpeted, and some ukemi I saw were quite bad - I saw one guy about my grade (sankyu) kneeling down, rolling horizontally across his back, get back up. Since then I have cut down on my complaining about ukemi on hardwood floor(not completely, though... ).

    On Aikido ukemi: I attended an Aikido session last year, just to see what it was like, and found their ukemi to be virtually identical to ours. Of course, maybe I was just doing them wrong
    I learnt ukemi, both the rolls and landing from nage waza on a wooden floor. This has seemed to work out well for me. I have taught them on hard and soft floors and have noticed that soft floors can be an advantage for many people. One of the key aspects of ukemi is in being relaxed. Some people become very tense when confronted with a wooden floor, and this impacts on their ability to learn the ukemi. Matts allow students to become used to the idea of falling and rolling and they allow them the chance to practice the technique without being concerned that they may hurt themselves. Once the students have confidence then the move to wooden floors is only a small step.

    How long ago were you in Brisbane, we may have met as I train at the Brisbane branch sometimes? I have only been in this area for the last five years though. I trained in Newcastle (NSW) and Sydney before moving to QLD.
    Cheers
    Colin Linz

  7. #37
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    It has been some years since I have experienced any Aikido. In the early nineties the Newcastle Branch had a social relationship with an Aikido Club. We used to have BBQ’s together and combined training sessions at times. They were always very enjoyable and interesting. I remember one technique that defends against a punch to the stomach, and was very similar to our Kote Nage. I thought it was called Kote Gaeshi, but since this has been associated with Gyaku Gote I must be mistaken. Anyway the technique was visually similar but with a much larger body avoidance and arm movement, there seemed to be much less emphasis on the wrist too. I believe Aikido can vary greatly between the different styles, but I remember thinking at the time that as similar as the techniques looked, there was still considerable differences.
    Cheers
    Colin Linz

  8. #38
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    Gassho,
    From my dim and distant past (and a number of aikido books I possess) I seem to recall that whilst in Shorinji Kempo we tend to differentiate between techniques by giving them different names, (for example gyaku gote, maki gote, kote nage and oshi gote all use the 'gyaku line' but have widely different names), in most Aikido schools they use the term Kote Gaeshi to descibe all the techniques that use that particular movement, and then just add the name of the attack. For example Katate Kote Gaeshi will be the technique that resembles Gyaku Gote, Mune Tsuki Kote Gaeshi will be the one that resembles Kote nage etc.
    The technique we have that resembles Aikido's Shihonage is Katatenage, which we normally apply by dropping to one knee with a very sharp torsion on the opponents bent arm, putting stress on the elbow and shoulder. If they don't follow the movement very quickly there is a real risk of serious dislocation. It can also be applied in the Aikido way, bringing the arm down the centre of the opponents back (as I think you mean) but this is much less common.
    One thing about Juho though, it definately isn't a softer or more gentle option for the opponent. Done with kime on someone unfamiliar with it and they will likely end up with a more serious and longer lasting injury than most Goho waza would give them.
    Kesshu
    Paul

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by colin linz
    How long ago were you in Brisbane, we may have met as I train at the Brisbane branch sometimes?
    We hay have: I was there for the month of July 2004 as a Tourist, training mainly with Michael Sheehan and his wife, and Sensei Andy Tan (Legends, all 3!). I would have been the Green belt standing out like a sore thumb (for those not in the know, There's only White belt for 5th-3rd Kyu, Brown for Ni/ikkyu in Oz), completely knackered because he kept turning up an hour early and knackering himself out on the treadmill!
    JC McCrae

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Goldsbury
    Well, as a 'guest' I have given you a few. I hope that some SK members with a similar training history to mine (35 years of aikido, 6th dan, but feeling age creeping on) might give some opinions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA
    ..... Sorry Peter, I think there is a fifth Dan and maybe a few third Dans that read the threads on E-Budo, but the "years in service" is even trickier.
    Hi Goldsbury-sensei, nice to have you posting in this part of e-budo.

    I don't think we have any (at least not regular) SK-members on e-budo of the same seniority as you.

    There are at least two more godan, apart from myself, with 20+ years of experience (John McCulloch and Yoshi Karahashi) that are members and sometimes post here. We also have quite a few yondan with similar years of experience (around 20+) that posts (Gary Dolce and Robert Persson to name two).

    I haven't actually read all the previous posts very thoroughly, so sorry if I write something that has already been said.

    As for a comparison of ukemi between Aikido and Shorinjikempo I can't really say if there actually is much difference. I think that we all do ukemi a little different depending on the situation.

    I have seen Aikido people do very nice ukemi on hard floor as well, without problem (also seen a few that haven't had ukemi that would work very good on hard floor, but that goes for SK kenshi as well ).

    As an example you could look at this video clip (~14,3 MB, 1.55 minutes long, best to right click and "save target as...") of an embu were you can see several ukemi for different nage waza.
    There is also one ukemi that is more of a roll (after 1.05 in the video) from a technique called tora daoshi.

    What is mostly said being characteristic for SK ukemi is the way we do ukemi when being thrown on hard floor, which is making sure that the zen sokutei (front pat of the foot, not sure what you call that in English) lands first and absorbs the fall.
    The other thing for the "ordinary" mae ukemi is that we use the arms to slow down the roll (difficult to explain with words, especially in English a lot easier to show) but the arms are extended on impact and then bend, maybe you could say just as when you are catching a ball that is being thrown to you, but the other way around (if anyone could understand that explanation ).

    From seeing the ukemi in the above mentioned video clip maybe Goldsbury-sensei can comment if he thinks there is a lot of difference or not from the way we do ukemi compared to basic Aikido ways?


    As for learning ukemi I believe that when first doing it the use of mats is a good thing, and also if you are going to do some intensive practice that involves nage. But mostly one should be able to handle it on any surface, but I can agree that the concrete floor where the British had their 30th anniversary Taikai and Gasshuku is not the favourite floor (concrete with some paint to make it soft), even if I can live with it.

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony leith View Post
    One, SK has been around in Glasgow since the 70s, and was originally introduced here by (I think) a Malaysian 2nd dan called Benny Wang studying at Glasgow University.
    Excuse the thread resurrection. I was googling for my old Sensei Benny Wang and found this. I trained under Benny for 1 year before he left - year 1978-79 and he was the founder. During the year at least 2 GU students went for brown belt so I'd guess they trained at least 2 years. You can find more information on his brother David Wang who visited one time and was phenomenal. The next sensei was Victor Chan from Singapore - the first GU student to get 1st Dan. Sadly I have no photos of Benny but I do have some of Victor, John Aiken (sp?) and others from that time.
    "We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training." from rec.martial-arts many years ago.

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