Aikido Technique name please?

[kdlarman]

In the USAF-Western Region (Chiba sensei) we call the technique in the pictures juji-nage. The throw comes from putting upwards pressure under ukes elbow cuasing uke to raise his center to prevent his elbow from being hyper extended. Once uke raises his center, nage steps diagnolly through uke and executes the throw. It's a bit more complicated than that, but you get the point.

It's one of my favorite techniques, and one I have also been injured taking ukemi for several times (hyper extended elbow). If your just a hair slow reacting as uke your elbow takes a real pounding on this technique.Even if your ukemi is spot on, it still tends to hurt quite a bit. Atleast the way Chiba sensei teaches it.

FWIW in Seidokan we call that particular throw jumanji-nage or juji-nage. Same basic (obviously simplified) explanation as Tim's. And the same as the set of sequential photos above posted by Jun. We try to avoid the elbow hyperextention as well and that's in part why we train in it as an advanced art. The idea being uke needs to be experienced enough to take proper ukemi to prevent the hyperextended elbow. Or at least nage needs to slow down and lead the person a bit better to help teach them how to protect themselves through the throw.

But yeah, I've let my slovenly body not react fast enough and found myself with an advil moment on that one a few times...

Just fwiw.

[Paul Kerr]

If in doubt - call it kokyu-nage!

[Aikilove]

The last couple of posters seem to completely ignore Nyumonsha's (the initial poster) last posts! It was not what Aiky posted pics of. It was also not exactly like the picture Nyumonsha posted (which btw I believe is kokyo nage/sumi otoshi/corner drop throw in aikikai terminology) to try to explain the technique. I think he has already given a good name for it: Straight arm Shihonage AKA. old form of shihonage AKA applied form of shihonage etc.

/J

[rupert]

I think you refer to a technique we used to call open shiho-nage. You do shiho-nage but let/make uke keep his arm straight while you hold his wrist with one hand and twist it a little like kote-gaeshi, but not. Uke has to do a big breakfall to escape, or tori has to whip uke over while releasing the lock a little for safety. If this is the one you mean, it is an ACE throw. You can also convert it to koshi-nage with a little shuffle of the feet. You can also add a little to the elbow to 'get him going'

[kdlarman]

The last couple of posters seem to completely ignore Nyumonsha's (the initial poster) last posts! ...
/J

Oh, no, did we actually get thread drift? Or normal conversational tangents! Heaven forbid!

Seriously, part of the point was to comment that names can vary greatly from style to style. I was using the photos from Jun and Tim's post to make that point. Frankly I'm still not sure from the narrative what the original poster is talking about.

[kdlarman]

And in all honesty I'm brain-farting significantly on the whole thread.

Looking over Jun's photos again I'd have to call that one sumi-otoshi in our style. Jumanji nage is the "tying" up and crossing of uke's arms prior to projection into a corner direction. I should know better than post with lack of sleep due to bronchitis...

Names, names, names...

I suppose I should just crawl back into my cave and meditate some more prior to posting.

[Ron Tisdale]

Well, let's see, in this one thread I've seen or heard referenced

Jujinage (cross arm throw)

Hijiate kokyunage (hitting elbow breath throw)

Shihonage

Shihonage kuzushi

!! some of these don't really resemble each other!

Question, how many aikidoka does it take to name a technique?

Answer...

Best,
Ron

[kdlarman]

Well, let's see, in this one thread I've seen or heard referenced

Jujinage (cross arm throw)

Hijiate kokyunage (hitting elbow breath throw)

Shihonage

Shihonage kuzushi

!! some of these don't really resemble each other!

Question, how many aikidoka does it take to name a technique?

Answer...

Best,
Ron

Easy. One. What my sensei always says. "Demonstrate. Aaaahhhh, okay, that one... Do it this way. Now practice..."

Or my other favorite quote I need to remind myself of... Damatte keikoshiro. Good advice for me...

[aikidoc1]

From the description it sounds kokyu nage to me as well. Originally, I had thought you were describing ude hiji/kime nage since you said entering from the outside. I question the garami label as I do not see any arm entwining involved. An accurate picture would definitely be of benefit.

[R Erman]

If it's the technique I'm thinking, I've learned it as kokyu nage or katate nage. The entry is identical to the way a lot of people go into shiho by locking up the skeletal structure and raising the center by twisting the arm.

The winding of the joint that you are talking about may be where you are getting the idea of a whipping throw, as from the slightly bent and torqued arm you can 'whip' it while you throw to straighten the arm--especially if you bring uke around while you throw rather than just out to the side. This causes a lot of damage to the elbow and shoulder.

I've also seen a henka where you use your left hand to apply pressure to the right elbow joint all the way through completion...which would no longer be a katate throw.

[Aikilove]

Oh, no, did we actually get thread drift? Or normal conversational tangents! Heaven forbid!

Seriously, part of the point was to comment that names can vary greatly from style to style. I was using the photos from Jun and Tim's post to make that point. Frankly I'm still not sure from the narrative what the original poster is talking about.

Sorry... A little bit tired myself when writing that.
I just got the impression that several posters focused on the different pics shown and ignored the fact that the original poster actually claimed that it was not the techniques shown in the pics.
Don't mind me however

Back to work

/J

[P Goldsbury]

Yes. I think it is possible to become hung up on the names of aikido techniques. You know, "Sensei called this technique X, therefore the technique is X."

This is fine for a particular dojo, or organization centered around the 'Sensei', but the aikido world is far too diverse for such names to apply universally. The Founder himself rarely used names, apart from Ikkajo, nikajo, sankajo (= Number 1, Number 2, Number 3...).

Calling the technique initially described shiho-nage oyou is not illuminating for me, since the only point of comparison is going under uke's arm and there are many non-shiho nage waza where tori does this. Perhaps Nyumonsha should ask his own teacher and let us know...

Best regards to all,

[Aikilove]

Peter, I got the impression from the description that nage also pivoted after going in under the arm (like in shihonage). In fact in our dojo it has become kind of the standard way of doing shihonage omote wasa when things speed up.
I could be wrong however.
Re: technique names, most aikikai shihan has their own version of names for some techniques.

/Jakob

[Nyumonsha]

You do shiho-nage but let/make uke keep his arm straight while you hold his wrist with one hand and twist it a little like kote-gaeshi, but not. Uke has to do a big breakfall to escape, or tori has to whip uke over while releasing the lock a little for safety. If this is the one you mean, it is an ACE throw. You can also convert it to koshi-nage with a little shuffle of the feet. You can also add a little to the elbow to 'get him going'

this is spot on!..

i have read the rest of the posts but thanks all.

i havent had time to really hunt for a pic. but will on the weekend. just for some "closure".

anyways 5am ... need sleep :/ yay for the da weekend

[Ron Tisdale]

http://www.doshinkan-aikido.org/media/waza/Shiho_Nage/

has pictures and video.

Best,
Ron