"Aunkai" / Akuzawa Minoru (Jin)

[Hissho]

How is it that we can do aiki-age, aiki-sage and standing cross-arm throws and what ever "form" one wished to express it in- as well as throwing from whatever touches us ...have judoka and Aikidoka "give up" on trying to throw us or lock us out...then go box, Kick and punch, and freestyle fight?
...

Dan

Dan, you keep dangling this carrot which has me really intrigued. I don't remember you getting back to me after my PM - are you coming out to Seattle for KB?

I'd love to get together and feel some of this stuff from you. John S. has all my contact info, and a backyard that we can use if the dojo isn't a suitable place. I need to hook up with him again anyway 'cuz we have each others stuff to trade, and want to work some handgun stuff together.

(No challenge intended, mind you, at least not of the unfriendly sort. I will challenge the assertion that you can do these things so easily, pending actual evidence to the contrary. I won't tank and I won't give up on throwing you or controlling you on the ground unless you make me!!

I am just eager to experience this in a "live" format.)

[Dan Harden]

HI Kit

Sorry I didn't get back. I'm home sick as a dog.
I DID reply to your PM. Do you mean on Budo seek? Anyway the heck with letters and such, ask John or any of the boys for my phone numbers or email. As for coming out, the training schedule has not been published yet so we'll have to see when.

Cheers
Dan

[Hissho]

Cool, buddy!

I'll get with John about the KB schedule, when it is happening and when I might come up. I don't want to disturb any of the training, but a get together one night afterwards for some rockin' and rollin' would be fun!

Looking forward to it.

[Dan Harden]

Ya yutz

The KB is gone by....
I couldn't make it this year because of business. Not that it mattered- I got sick as a dog by Friday anyway.

I think we can have some fun though when I come out. We usually train on the weekend so maybe we do a frid or Mond thing. Ellis and Josh might want to play as well.
Dan

[Asura]

[b]Why is it that Tenryu the sumo guy -in an unpresidented event never equaled-was told after only 3 months of training

What did he get?
What did he already partially have?
Muscle? Technique?


The few
Why would you "assume" that everyone in the Sagawa dojo got it? Is that yours, mine or anyone elses experience in anything? Anywhere? Ten years from now lets talk about all the poeple who have come and gone who have trained with Ark in those years. Lets compare skills between them? It is a sad but true axium that most mens minds stop at the waza they are shown. Just because Ark is openly showing the body skills doesn't mean everyone will always get it. See what I mean?

Heh heh, I have a pretty good idea why... Sumo training is less about waza and more about Kihon tanren training at heart. Though like you said, that doesn't necessarily mean that they'll get "it".

I wasn't expecting the guy to have "it", so much as I was expecting his body to be more connected. Especially since all the hype about most of the people in the Sagawa Dojo being exceptionally "strong" from their focus on basics.
After talking to him afterwards, it turns out that maybe only a few in the dojo ever focused on bodyskill training, and that most of the training was still focused on the "Gen"/Technique training, though with an emphasis with training using full resistance.

I will say that even the "average" person gets "stronger" under Ark's curriculum, just by the fact that he focuses on those basic bodyskill building exercises and almost entirely excludes technique for the first couple of years. We had this govt worker that had never done MAs before in his life, didn't really exercise, but he was comitted and did the exercises everyday at home, and in about a year his body got that "heavy" feel.
Whether or not they stop at that point, or make that "jump" needed to step into the doorway of the next level is entirely up to the individual though, like you say. I do think that the average "bar" of performance can be raised though.

Rob

[Hissho]

Dan-

My bad. Last I heard they were getting renovations done in preparation for, I had no idea it had already gone by. Dang!

Any time you are out is fine, I don't mind the drive up, used to do it all the time. It would be nice to see Ellis again - maybe his guys Brett and our own Aaron T would like to join in. Now THAT is a wrecking crew. If Aaron is cool with it we can use his club.

His guys are game grapplers as well.

Sorry, all, for the thread drift....

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. John,

I'll just say a couple things, first of all, videos lie. It doesn't look nearly as impressive as it feels. And looking at the videos...well lets just say I wouldn't be impressed myself.

I hate to state the obvious, but why did you post videos that would not impress yourself or anyone else then? I understand what you're saying about seeing being different than feeling, but those who would know what they are seeing would not be able to draw much of an opinion from the videos you posted.

Akuzawa Minoru is a contemporary practitioner who has focused his training on acquiring and developing the sophisticated body skills associated with this goal. Akuzawa Sensei studied under Sagawa Sensei for several years and continued after Sagawa's death with Kimura Sensei.

So is it "Akuzawa Minoru" or "Akuzawa Jin"? Either way, please post a date range that Mr. Akuzawa trained with Sagawa and Kimura Sensei. Check your PM's too...

The demonstrations were NOT of aiki, tho if you want to call it aiki feel free. He's trying to demonstrate the importance of "standing" and that you should need a "stance" persay to pull these things off.

Agreed on the aiki. However, the need for taking a stance in order to perform such techniques may be place where Mr. Akuzawa's techniques differ from that of Daito-ryu.

And yes his background was originally more in the ringsport of Sanda ... tho he's considering on getting our feet wet in Sanda/Muay Thai at some point.

My observation about him coming from a kicking/punching background [Sanda is an alternate name for Wushu, a type of Chinese Gung-fu] was not just a lucky guess. Mr. Akuzawa moves in a way that suggests this, which is a different way of moving from that of the movements those specializing in jujutsu, aikido and aikijujutsu display when applying such techniques.

Good luck with the seminar though. I'm sure Mr. Akuzawa has a lot to offer for those interested in mixed-style combatives and sports.

Regards,

[Asura]

Sup Nathan,

Sorry looks like I had a typo in my post. I meant to say that he was trying to show the importance of doing a technique "without" a stance. That is, simply doing it from "standing" in the most basic form.

The chinese reading of his name is Jin, but apparently he's called Minoru. (First name's aren't used much in Japan so I guessed when I read his character)
He was enrolled in Sagawa's Dojo from about 1995/6 to 1998(when he passed away)

Btw the whole impressive not impressive is purely a personal opinoin
If it were so "dull" then I doubt I'd be getting inquiries from people outside of the TMA area
Its kinda ironic that those in the sport martial venue sometimes have a better eye for this stuff than TMA people.

[Nathan Scott]

The chinese reading of his name is Jin, but apparently he's called Minoru. (First name's aren't used much in Japan so I guessed when I read his character)
He was enrolled in Sagawa's Dojo from about 1995/6 to 1998 (when he passed away)

O.K., hopefully somebody will remember him training there over that 2 to 3 year period. I can't imagine there wouldn't be some kind of record remaining.

Btw the whole impressive not impressive is purely a personal opinoin
If it were so "dull" then I doubt I'd be getting inquiries from people outside of the TMA area. Its kinda ironic that those in the sport martial venue sometimes have a better eye for this stuff than TMA people.

If by having a "better eye" you mean that there is more of a positive reaction to your posts and videos than from those in hybrid/modern arts than those in TMA, then I agree that it is kinda ironic. BTW, I didn't say the videos were "dull", I quoted what you said yourself, which is that you wouldn't be impressed by seeing them either. If I caused you to feel defensive by agreeing with your own opinion, I apologize.

Best-O-luck to ya'll with your marketing campaign and training. Really. At least you guys are making the effort to train, which is more than can be said about most people these days.

Regards,

[Asura]

BTW, I didn't say the videos were "dull", I quoted what you said yourself, which is that you wouldn't be impressed by seeing them either.

Nah, I wasn't getting defensive. And I reread what I wrote, lol, that doesn't make any sense does it?? :-p
What I meant to say was, it doesn't (and I probably wouldn't be ) impressed at first glance. But if you take a second look, the way the person caves in etc, you'll find that you'll be hard pressed to duplicate the results (unless you have that body structure). Then there's all the other details like there being no "loading" of the hips, and the heel staying flat on the ground, with him being upright most of the time while delivering the kick.

Thnx for the support tho

[Dan Harden]

Heh heh, I have a pretty good idea why... Sumo training is less about waza and more about Kihon tanren training at heart. Though like you said, that doesn't necessarily mean that they'll get "it".

I wasn't expecting the guy to have "it", so much as I was expecting his body to be more connected. Especially since all the hype about most of the people in the Sagawa Dojo being exceptionally "strong" from their focus on basics.
After talking to him afterwards, it turns out that maybe only a few in the dojo ever focused on bodyskill training, and that most of the training was still focused on the "Gen"/Technique training, though with an emphasis with training using full resistance.

I will say that even the "average" person gets "stronger" under Ark's curriculum, just by the fact that he focuses on those basic bodyskill building exercises and almost entirely excludes technique for the first couple of years. We had this govt worker that had never done MAs before in his life, didn't really exercise, but he was comitted and did the exercises everyday at home, and in about a year his body got that "heavy" feel.
Whether or not they stop at that point, or make that "jump" needed to step into the doorway of the next level is entirely up to the individual though, like you say. I do think that the average "bar" of performance can be raised though.

Rob

Only a few focused on the body work though…………

Hah hah…so what else is new?

I think its deeper than that though. I have stood in rooms filled with people who WERE told what to do and just didn’t do it. Examples: You know about Aiki sage and Aiki age. I stood there as a teacher said…. “Why does it have to be done with a partner? Do this at home by yourself.” How many asked why and what it was supposed to do and the how. And how many asked “How do you use this in Judo or wrestling? I did. So he told me and also told me what to think about and how to breathe. Hell I asked and did it for self preservation. While the rest of the crew was learning structure through wrist and gi grabbing-I had to go home to practice on Judo and Collegiate wrestlers. So while one set of guys were learning to stabilize and breathe using our teachers (mis-referenced) directions of engaging long muscle (fascia) through wrist grabbing, my crew was forced to learn it through stopping push/pulls, single and double leg take downs and head and body shots and general mayhem. All while learning to dish it out as well. So I asked again..and was shown ways to breathe so that the body shots didn’t even matter to me anymore. When the interest is there a lot can be gained through solo training and experimentation. I used to go back to that group all the time with "uses" for "it" that they had not seen or used. But the principles were all there..all along. It was just another way to do “it” is all. The truth is that “it” is so profound and universal that everyone can manifest "it" differently-but the body work is the same.

It is my view that most people did not, and do not, take the “home work” seriously enough. I have asked almost every guy I trained with then as well as now “Do you train solo?” Almost no one I know has said yes. I am fuming that when I asked my own guys this Sat. morning- only one was training at home alone. erggh!!!!
Ya know what the first thing I was told to do? Train alone in a swimming pool-doing certain things. Rob…....its standing! And its everything we know to do but done with exaggerated feedback. Getting up out of the pool and then back down and then out caused my family to right me off as a nut. I can promise you that this will always remain small and unheard of for one reason alone. It takes too much time.
Want an opinion? People don’t do body work cause they right it off. They don’t understand the benefits and what is supposed to be going on….on the inside. Yet the two excellent teachers I have had both did and were always open about telling others to do it. Wierd huh?

Further studies

I think the Sumo shikko work is two fold though. The arch for shikko can be used to drive a ground path one side to the other but also in a stand up form to divide and weight drop. One has more significant advantages in a grappling format over the other. But you already know this I think.
Ground work and using the same connections in different planes.
If you are in a top mount ground-and-pound; First try setting up a path from your knees to your shoulders so when he pulls he gets zip- all while your arms are free to whip him or drill. Then if he wins and he does a pull to bring you down to avoid the punches? Use the path from your knee to your arm or hand as he pulls and “ground” through him in his face or neck. It being a new definition to heaviness.
If you have a four corner top mount do the same thing one path to the other criss-crossing. You can also use the ground path to do chokes that most MMA guys can’t make work so they throw them away and won’t train them. Also to “punish” a guy while working him. With very small movement in a clinch you should be able to use a path to generate power and wind-in at the same time right? If you can- you can do a hell of a lot of damage with your head and hands using your legs and hips. Think about it.
As you have learned it isn’t a panacea to all physical dilemmas- but as I have always maintained “It is the best way to train in the world.”


Cheers
Dan

[Cady Goldfield]

Hah. I train at home alone. I ran out of volunteers at the office to punch and grab...
Are you training next Sat. and the Sat. after? Mas is up this Friday through Feb.5.

me

[Asura]

[b]Ya know what the first thing I was told to do? Train alone in a swimming pool-doing certain things. Rob…....its standing! And its everything we know to do but done with exaggerated feedback. Getting up out of the pool and then back down and then out caused my family to right me off as a nut. I can promise you that this will always remain small and unheard of for one reason alone. It takes too much time.

I'm definitely all ears, I think I have an idea of what you're talkin about, but I'll have to find a Pool first to test it. (Hopefully the lifeguards will only write me off as a nut and not throw me out, lol)

Further studies

I think the Sumo shikko work is two fold though. The arch for shikko can be used to drive a ground path one side to the other but also in a stand up form to divide and weight drop. One has more significant advantages in a grappling format over the other. But you already know this I think.
Ground work and using the same connections in different planes.
If you are in a top mount ground-and-pound; First try setting up a path from your knees to your shoulders so when he pulls he gets zip- all while your arms are free to whip him or drill. Then if he wins and he does a pull to bring you down to avoid the punches? Use the path from your knee to your arm or hand as he pulls and “ground” through him in his face or neck. It being a new definition to heaviness.


If you have a four corner top mount do the same thing one path to the other criss-crossing. You can also use the ground path to do chokes that most MMA guys can’t make work so they throw them away and won’t train them. Also to “punish” a guy while working him. With very small movement in a clinch you should be able to use a path to generate power and wind-in at the same time right? If you can- you can do a hell of a lot of damage with your head and hands using your legs and hips. Think about it.
As you have learned it isn’t a panacea to all physical dilemmas- but as I have always maintained “It is the best way to train in the world.”

Thanks for the tips Dan, I've actually used the "path from the knee to your shoulders" thing several times during rolling sessions in BJJ. Works wonders...in fact with the stuff I do, I find myself getting in a position to do ground and pound over and over again.
There's also this thing I use (probably came from Yagyu shingan body work) in grappling, that I can only describe as "washing the body". Basically you run your hands (while keeping a path to your arms from your spine) along your body lines, while attacking his bodylines... its frustrated the bjj guys to no end since, there's no point where I "rest" on them. Eventually they "#$#"up and the hands slip in and allow me to go for a choke or guilottine.

My bodies finally learning to deal with the Gi

Have to start getting into No-Gi work though...I have a feeling it'll be a whole different ballgame.

Rob

[edg176]

Rob and Dan,
I have to keep this short because I'm pressed for time.

One of the things that has helped me (since my only help comes via internet) is to remember something from pilates. Allow me to explain. I am NOT saying that pilates is using the same power by the way. Every exercise has an easier version. This easier version comes from the fact that you find ways to minimize the effect of gravity on the particular joint(s)/body part you are working on. When I'm looking for the "internal" leg connection, I have been lying on my back, because that takes my weight off my legs. I've tried it in the hot tub also, and that works well.

You guys might want to take a look (if you haven't already) at the pilates aparatuses such as the reformer and the cadillac. They are ways of taking strain/gravity off of a muscle or muscle group so that you can work through the proper range of motion even if you aren't strong enough to do it on your own. Eventually they take away the support, and then, using springs, make it more difficult. For example, the shoulder stand. Until the core is strong enough, you can use the springs and cables on the reformer to support the legs. Eventually the person can do it on their own without the support.

This may all be more confusing in words than it would be if you saw it in person. And I may be totally off the mark. But I thought it might be useful to the both of you.

[Dan Harden]

Tim

Pilates and other core training have nothing to do with what Rob and I are discussing. Don't get me wrong. I am big on lifting and core training. I just try to not let it get in the way of my internal training. If you are not careful....VERY careful it will inhibit progress.
In other words they are not the same...not by a mile. So while I am a lifter -always have been- guess which one gives me a "true" feeling of power?
And no amount of sit ups can account for my middle.

Rob
I think I know what you mean. I do similar things if I am reading you right. Its a very "wearing a wet shirt" feel while breathing...Know what I mean? Listen. If you can connect and touch but have your hand, arm, side, hip, back whatever... moving in all directions-while grounded they will have one hell of a time feeling where -you- are.. while it aids in controlling where they are. I haven't seen it used anywhere else. It is fairly profound disruption. It also works if you are boxing and they "touch" you. After a while their arms are killing them. But fighting is fighting. Anyone can always get nailed.
I got to get out there and play with you guys. Does ark have a good sense of humor as well as a sense of experimentation with all this?
Cheers
Dan