Snapping Motions and Injury

[luar]

Last Saturday I was working on my Jun Zuki trying to improve my relaxation. I did a couple of never-seen-before snap punches when all of the sudden I felt a sharp pain in my elbow. I stopped immediately and went on to other things. Last night while practicing Chidori Gaeshi at a very slow pace, my opponent's uke went right on my elbow and it hurt like crazy. He really did not hit me that hard but it really did hurt. I've been icing it since then.

[JL.]

Gassho Raul-san!

I had problems with my elbows, too, when doing Tsuki. They stemmed from the arresting movement when completely stretching the elbow. My Sensei told me not to arrest the elbow and to snap the arm back right after the punch as an active movement. This helped, and I think it's really important because it could have really ruined my elbows and I definitely still need them!

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[David Dunn]

Raul, I had a dicky elbow for a few months a few years ago. I probably should have rested it, but there you go. If it's really painful I'd get it looked at. The most likely thing is overstretched ligaments. I think injuries arise from over-extension rather than snappiness itself. Particularly when you're doing tanen, you shouldn't lock out your arm, and then also use complete forearm tension to support the ligaments in the joint.

Jan, my understanding is that you shouldn't so actively pull back. The triceps don't have much to do with the arm coming out, and the biceps don't have much to do with it coming back. The only tension is in the forearm, and then only at the moment of kime. The 'snap' occurs naturally as you release the tension, like a spring recoiling. One analogy is using a hammer. You nail much more effectively if you allow the hammer to bounce back from the nail - the nail goes in deeper with each blow - in mechanics terms you do more work on the nail. Try it sometime, and compare with just smashing the hammer down and actively pulling it off again. I must have hammered 1000 nails this year. The usual result is bruised thumbs. Or swatting a fly - harder to move away from.

[JL.]

Gassho!

Hmm, I don't know. How am I supposed to stretch my arm without using the triceps? And how to pull it back without the biceps? That's pretty impossible, for all I know. The biceps and triceps only move the lower arm, of course, but if I hurt my elbow it's probably from a movement by the lower arm, from my understanding.
I suck at medicine, for sure, but the council my Sensei gave me worked, so I think it can't be that wrong.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[luar]

Gassho Raul-san!

I had problems with my elbows, too, when doing Tsuki. They stemmed from the arresting movement when completely stretching the elbow. My Sensei told me not to arrest the elbow and to snap the arm back right after the punch as an active movement. This helped, and I think it's really important because it could have really ruined my elbows and I definitely still need them!

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

I was not arresting the elbow but instead whipping it back as we are trained to do but it looked like I got carried away and overdid it.

[David Dunn]

Hmm, I don't know. How am I supposed to stretch my arm without using the triceps? And how to pull it back without the biceps? That's pretty impossible, for all I know.

Well, if the upper arm and shoulder muscles are relaxed, then the snap of your body turning can send the relaxed arm out. You can send a chain out with a big ball on it to knock down buildings, and that doesn't have opposing muscles to do the work. If you stand in kaisoku dachi, arms hanging loosely by the side and make a good fluid furimi and hip/shoulder turn, your arms follow like a pedulum (furiko). Anyway, I think the idea is to involve the biceps/triceps as little as possible; of course if you don't involve them at all you can't make the action properly, just as if you completelyrelax you'll be a heap on the floor.

[jailess]

Luar,

Does your elbow currently have the full range of motion? If not, what does it extend out to (normal range is 180 degrees)?

What motions make it better/worse? put your thumb on the outside of the elbow, on in the crease of it, and either side. Push down gently. is any of these painful?

At the point of injury was your elbow at full extension at all?

[luar]

Luar,

Does your elbow currently have the full range of motion? If not, what does it extend out to (normal range is 180 degrees)?

What motions make it better/worse? put your thumb on the outside of the elbow, on in the crease of it, and either side. Push down gently. is any of these painful?

At the point of injury was your elbow at full extension at all?

I would say it was definitely on the thrust and probably locked out. Today it feels fine and tonight I will practice with caution since I know we are going ukemi.

[paul browne]

Gassho
As I've had a recurring elbow injury,following a bad dislocation when I was 17 (I'm 39 now) I have had to be constantly aware of the possibility of elbow injury during single form.
Mizuno sensei has always taught that at the point of imagined impact (in single form) you should tighten the fist completly (at the moment of Kime), which has the effect of stabilising the joint. He also teaches the importance of the foot position in Jun/Gyaku geri to protect the knee joint in the same way. The moment of tension is VERY brief and should have no effect on the speedy withdrawl of the strike.
I've found that the only time I hurt my elbow or knee is when I don't obey this rule.
Incidently over the years I've managed to injure my shoulders (in a minor way) performing poor shita uke and harai uke with incorrect form and can only take comfort in the fact that I've seen far superior kempo technicians than me do the same thing.
Kesshu
Paul

[paul browne]

Gassho
Luar,
After my post yesterday I thought of something else you might try to prevent elbow injury.
Assuming it is occuring usually during Jodan choku zuki you could try keeping the hand totally in Tate ken (vertical with the thumb pointing up) rather than the qaurter turn that is commonly practised. I've had far fewer problems since I started doing that.
Whilst it isn't the way Jodan zuki is commonly practised now it is the way Doshin So threw it, at least in the photographs I've seen.
Hope this helps
Paul
Kesshu

[David Dunn]

Whilst it isn't the way Jodan zuki is commonly practised now it is the way Doshin So threw it, at least in the photographs I've seen.

... and the way that returnees from the Busen also do it, or even uraken as a thrust rather than the uchi that's familiar in kote nuki etc.

[tony leith]

I seem to remember having quite severe problems with elbow pain for my first year or so of practice. I'd like to ascribe the fact that is no longer the case to much better technique, but I wouldn't want to push that one too much..

As a matter of physiological fact, while the point that Paul makes about using fine muscular control NOT to overextend into punches/kicks is very important (hence why static stretching before kihon isn't a great idea IMHO), as a rule I think you should save going for maximum 'snap' in atemi for when you're actually hitting something. NB by this I mean a pad or a do rather than some unsuspecting partner. Having a surface to strike makes it much less likely you'll sufffer this sort of injury (though of course it does open up eciting new vistas of different kinds of injuries if you don't use them properly).

I'm not suggesting that kihon shouldn't involve putting kenshi under time pressure, just that going for absolute maximum extension (even in our terms, whuich should allow for more conservation of elbow/knee cartilage than say a shotokan strike) in tan en practice is probably not a great idea.

Tony Leith

[cheunglo]

Gassho Raul-san!

I had problems with my elbows, too, when doing Tsuki. They stemmed from the arresting movement when completely stretching the elbow. My Sensei told me not to arrest the elbow and to snap the arm back right after the punch as an active movement. This helped, and I think it's really important because it could have really ruined my elbows and I definitely still need them!

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

I have held off writing in this discussion since I dislike giving specific technical advice on a physical movement without the opportunity to demonstrate what I mean. However, I also don't want other kenshi hurting themselves either.

People who suffer the kind of injury luar described originally is doing 2 things wrong.
1. You NEVER lock out your elbow at 180 degrees in tsuki.
2. You NEVER lock out your elbow at 180 degrees in tsuki.

I know that, strictly speaking, this is only 1 thing wrong but it needed to be pointed out twice.

The elbow is NOT designed to be snapped straight. Graham Nabbs Sensei used to point out that the energy generated in straightening the elbow from 170 to 180 degrees is completely consumed within the elbow itself with none left over to actually increase the power of the actual tsuki.

The elbow is not like the knee. The knee IS designed to lock out and that is why your can do snap kicks with fully extended legs. If you snap a punch with fully locked out elbows the best you can expected is a temporary acute injury to this joint. However, most of the time, you can expect an almost permanent injury with arthritis in the long term.

Case in point, no one at Abbey locks out their elbow in tsuki (at least not after I've slapped them on the back of their head a few times) and we have no elbow injuries.

[paul browne]

Gassho,
I would agree with both Chueng and Tony up to a point.
Chueng is quite correct in saying you shouldn't lock out the elbow to 180 at the end of a strike, and the kime at the end of the movement helps prevent this from occuring. Incidently this correct moment of 'snap' is important in other thrusts and strikes, for example shuto giri and kumade to both protect the elbow and give maximum energy transfer into the target. It's really something that the kenshi needs to experiment with (carefully) themselves on a suitable target.
I'd only cautiously agree regarding the knee joint as this to can be injured by hyperextending during single form.
Tony's comments regarding the bag/ partner hold true provided you don't miss, and it's worth remembering that a fracture to the tip of the elbow joint is a fairly common injury at all levels of boxing(there is even a name to describe the injury but I forget what it is.)


Chueng.....If you've time to read and write posts your leaving far to much of the nappy stuff to your long suffering wife.....back to work with you!!!
Paul
Kesshu

[jailess]

Tony's comments regarding the bag/ partner hold true provided you don't miss, and it's worth remembering that a fracture to the tip of the elbow joint is a fairly common injury at all levels of boxing(there is even a name to describe the injury but I forget what it is.)

Though it isn't a fracture, Triceps Tendinosis could be what Paul's talking about (without pressure on the elbow's outside fracture is difficult; tennis players occasionally stress-fracture their Olecranon). It is described as below:

Posterior elbow pain in the setting of repetitive elbow extension suggests the diagnosis of triceps tendinosis. Forceful extension worsens the pain. Tenderness of the triceps tendon is present at or just superior to the attachment on the olecranon and increases with extension performed under resistance.

Most elbow overuse injuries settle with PRICEM:

• Protection (don't bump it or use it).
• Rest
• Ice
• Compression
• Elevation
• Medication (anti-inflammatory cream, possibly tablets such as ibuprofen [advil], but consult your doctor before taking tablets)