Krav Maga: The new Tae Bo or Effective CQC

[Prince Loeffler]

Does Krav Maga have any relation to the Jewish MA of Hagana ?

[Inazuma]

What's that?
Hagana lit. means defence/protection.

[Prince Loeffler]

What's that?
Hagana lit. means defence/protection.

This I know, so let me rephrase my question. Is the art in any relation to Krav Maga, such as offshoot of the style or vice versa ?.

Thank you

[Inazuma]

From what I know, and that isn't much, we did some forms of the KM in the army. There is suppose to be some confusion nowadays with who's the actual successor of KM after the man who codified it died. Branches came about that competed, and all that stuff. I don't know Hagana as a MA, though I'll check around some sites, call my friends back home maybe they know it, so Í'll have to get back to you on that.
From what I've seen and know about KM wasn't it mainly designed for the IDF?
I know we trained with our rifles...
It's funny, but when I look back on my service time, that alot of the training we had in basic (which was infantry) and even some of the advance (tank division, not infantry) looks alot like kata makes you wonder about the current actual meaning martial arts (as in the military arts). But maybe thats a debut for a different forum...

[Prince Loeffler]

From what I know, and that isn't much, we did some forms of the KM in the army. There is suppose to be some confusion nowadays with who's the actual successor of KM after the man who codified it died. Branches came about that competed, and all that stuff. I don't know Hagana as a MA, though I'll check around some sites, call my friends back home maybe they know it, so Í'll have to get back to you on that.
From what I've seen and know about KM wasn't it mainly designed for the IDF?
I know we trained with our rifles...
It's funny, but when I look back on my service time, that alot of the training we had in basic (which was infantry) and even some of the advance (tank division, not infantry) looks alot like kata makes you wonder about the current actual meaning martial arts (as in the military arts). But maybe thats a debut for a different forum...

Thanks for the info Amir ! As far as Hagana goes, I recall seeing one in Black Belt Mags a while back and I swear it was spelled "Haganah" Since KM was already popular before the Hagana advertisement, I was under the assumption that it was an offshoot of KM

[Inazuma]

A good article by J. Wagner and A. Nardia: http://www.usadojo.com/martial-arts-...i-military.htm
I wonder if Mr. McCarthy could shed some more light upon this subject, he is a member of the forum right? (I'm so terrible with names!).
The only reference I managed to dig about Haganah is that it's some sort of varient of the KM. Other then that, the Haganah was an underground military unit for the zionist settlers in Israel prior to the formal making of the country... It bacame the IDF later. Haven't check with anyone in Isael just yet because of the time difference.

[Patrick McCarthy]

..... I wonder if Mr. McCarthy could shed some more light upon this subject, he is a member of the forum right? (I'm so terrible with names!)....

Haganah was a secret organisation created in 1936 as a protection force for Jews who emigrated to Palestine; it’s original purpose was to defend Jewish communities from attacks by Arabs. Haganah became the military arm of the Jewish Agency but it was not part of the two most famous Jewish terrorist organisations that existed at that time - the Stern Gang and Irgun Zvai Leumi – both of whose activities were condemned by Haganah.

In the Spring of 1948, the British planned to leave Palestine following a United Nations resolution to create a Jewish state. It was at this time that Haganah openly fought against Arabs. By the time of the 1948 war between the nearly founded Israel and surrounding Arab nations, Haganah had developed in to what was essentially the Israeli Army.

I wish I could offer more but my experience is limited to working with the Mosaad, Shabaq & Yamaam.

[Inazuma]

I'd hardly call that limited Mr. McCarthy... Although I was wondering more along the lines whether you have heard of the name Hagana as a MA offshot, or varient of Krav Maga. I've never really followed the Krav Maga history, nor have done it outside of the IDF.
Did you like Israel?

[Patrick McCarthy]

I'd hardly call that limited Mr. McCarthy... Although I was wondering more along the lines whether you have heard of the name Hagana as a MA offshot, or varient of Krav Maga. I've never really followed the Krav Maga history, nor have done it outside of the IDF.
Did you like Israel?

My apologies...should have read your post more closely. I'm sorry I don't really know much about that.

Israel? It's a fascinating place. Also, being Christian, I enjoyed travelling to various spiritual locations on different trips. Not overly fond of the "interrogation" process when departing the country's airport!!

[Nadelman]

Hagana translates to "Defense" in Hebrew. Hence, "Hagana Atzmit" translates to "Self Defense".

The organization that Mr. McCarthy was referring to as the "Hagana" was short for "Tzava Hanaga Leumit" or "National Defense Army". After the formation of the State of Israel, it eventually merged with several other groups to form "Tzava Hagana L'Yisroel" or "Israel Defense Force" (IDF), the current name of Israel's Military.

It is only a coincidence that the word Hagana (Defense) is used in both. They are as unrelated as it would be in english.

So yes, KM is referred to as a "Self Defense" course, or "Hagana".

Neil

[Jock Armstrong]

On the subject of whether it's tae bo or not- it depends on who teaches it. I suspect that a big sports franchise will reduce to a kind of aerobics. That way they will have little student turnover and keep the money coming in. Other people will teach it like it is a combat art and it will have a few, good students. It's the same story as karate, TKD or kung fu.

[poison]

There are three offshoots: Krav Maga, Kapap, and Hisardut. Hisardut was the original, if I'm not mistaken, then they changed the name to Kapap. The civilian version is Krav Maga, but most Israelis don't differentiate and use Krav Maga as a catch-all name (like KleenX).

I've visited the school here in LA. It's decent, but nothing like the way it's taught in the military. I'd say that's by necessity: a large part of Krav Maga is very brutal. They understand that you can't learn to fight well in three months (the length of the general security course), so a good amount of time is spent learning 'absorbtion', basically taking blows to the abdomen, and aggression. It is pretty horrific, but effective: in the end a full force kick to the solar plexus with no pad won't phase you too much.

They really want you to lose all inhibitions and phobias (that relate to fighting, at least), and to discover the 'animal' inside you. Because of their time constraint, they substitute toughness and a sheer tidal wave of overwhelming aggression for skill and precision.

They don't bother trying to re-teach your body. Rather they try to incorporate your natural movements and reactions under stress into technique to shorten the learning curve.

A lot of it is simply going for the immediate advantage (eyes, throat, groin) and a lot is pre-emption. Someone stabbing at you? Block and jab simultaneously; the jab won't be effective, but it may stun him enough to give you the advantage to continue the rest of the drill.

If you need to learn to defend yourself in a short period, I think it's hard to beat. If you can give more, and make it a lifestyle, you can go farther with another discipline.

[Nadelman]

. Haganah became the military arm of the Jewish Agency but it was not part of the two most famous Jewish terrorist organisations that existed at that time - the Stern Gang and Irgun Zvai Leumi – both of whose activities were condemned by Haganah.

Patrick, terrorists target civilians. These groups targeted the British army because the British armed the Arabs and forbade Jews from carrying weapons to protect themselves. The Jews were frequently attacked by the Arabs and recieved no protection from the British.

To add insult to injury, the British incarcerated Jews caught with weapons and sent holocaust refugees trying to enter Israel to camps in cypress.

The Jews did not attack another country and try to destroy it. They were defending themselves.

HUGE difference.

Self defense vs. murder of helpless civilians as a tool to "terrorize" a society.

both of whose activities were condemned by Haganah.

All of these groups (including the haganah) had diametrically opposed political views and many of them eventually formed the right and left wing political parties in Israel after the creation of the State.