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Thread: Naginatajutsu & Sojutsu - FAQ

  1. #46
    MarkF Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by tddeangelo
    Mark,

    Not to stir the pot, but isn't that what Kano expressly WANTED to do? Didn't he wish to preserve that which saw as good and worthy of preservation in his jujutsu studies while diminishing and/or discarding that which was not so good (in his estimation)?

    What I've read on Ueshiba is similar. Take the totality of what they learned, and they wanted to preserve that which was good in the koryu forms and evolve it into something better.

    And isn't "budo" considered the natural evolution of the older "bujutsu"

    *shrug*

    Just something that bounced around in my skull while reading this... if it doesn't seem right, don't take it too seriously.

    Tom
    Well, if you want to be technical about it...

    Some see it that way, and yes Kano definitely wanted to preserve what was all ready being lost, but his reasons for using the term "judo" instead of "jujutsu" was more along the lines of making sure that people understood that he wasn't *only* creating a style of jujutsu, but a repository of sorts. Kano did, after all, teach or had others teach what today some call bujutsu, such as defensive and offensive ways of using a sword. Most photos, however, show him teaching women these kinds of defense. Besides, what I was really referring to was simply the terminology and not the actual thing itself. IOW, I do not think there was a concious effort to divide budo and bujutsu until much later when there was enough evidence to debate the subject. On top of that, I have to admit those are not exactly my words, the budo/bujutsu time continuum comes from a person who is well-respected in koryu and who used to be a common poster (not that he was common), but it was his argument in a discussion on the same topic that area I was using.

    I agree with you concerning Uyeshiba but his reasons had a more striking spiritual reason or reasons behind it while Kano was probably being more practical: pragmatic v. esoteric, if you will.

    As far as I know, budo really shouldn't be any different than bujutsu. Or better said, perhaps, that budo doesn't necessarily mean old nor does budo mean new. Even Kano said that we study jujutsu so that one day we practice judo. Kano did have certain reasons for some things, standardized ukemi, invitational shiai as opposed to taryu jiai which he detested. The latter particularly was important so that people would become better people instead of better or meaner hoodlums, something else he disliked of some of the schools of his time (some actually jumped students in, IOW, beat them up, before admittance to the particular jujutsu or kobudo schools).

    So you can say it is like that, but I doubt you will find much difference in a kyudo dojo than in a kyujutsu dojo. That is probably the better argument that the two are interchangeable. Of course, it could be said this way:

    Charlie Chan: "Jujutsu please, not Judo."

    And just to give you more credit, Kano did have more than a dozen schools of what we call koryu jujutsu helping him when it became time to organized the gokyo no waza. In that context, you are right that some things did have to be eliminated, though it would probably be more along the lines of changing the non-practical forms into practical ones. That was his gift to budo.


    Mark

  2. #47
    MarkF Guest

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    How old was Kano when he formulated judo? I seem to remember seeing a picture of his keikogi from his teenage years and it was a heavy duty one.
    The Kodokan was founded in 1882. Jigoro Kano was born in October of 1860 so he was 21/22 yr. old.

    As a teen, he probably wore what others wore in his particular dojo at the time. Kodokan Judo was officially formulated in 1895 or 1896, but Kano's new art was sufficiently different in 1882 to say it was founded then as he had all ready changed to the licensing system used outside of budo, th dan-i system.

    Most photos of Kano teaching or demonstrating show that he does not wear a judogi much of the time, but the traditional dress of Japan in those days. He did pose for photos in which he demonstrated kata or in how to wear the modern judogi, but as the original dogi were made of canvass and were hand-sewn were not seen as very comfortable nor durable. This led to cotton, but it took a very long time to get from there to here, or from then to now. Originally, there were no shitagi and shorts to mid-thigh were the only pants worn. Both the jacket and pants grew longer and heavier over time, but even in my time there were many changes. When I started in 1963, the pants came down just below the knee, the jackets were all single knit, with sleeves just covering the elbow if you held your arms straight down. The shitagi did have patches to protect the knee but these too, barely reached below knee.

    Attend any judo demonstration of shiai and you can easily see the difference, but the clothing does not make the art or sport, the person inside the clothing does that.


    Mark

  3. #48
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    So the argument boils down to clothing?

    Ok, look at it like this.

    A-The heavy cotten uwagei (sp???) seems to be pretty widespread amoung koryu folks---you mean to tell me that it is also a "modern" invention?

    A heavier quilted top seems to have been pretty widespread in colder weather.

    B-Hand sewing--fabrics that have been hand sewn have been around vastly longer than "machine sewn" cloth--and yet we have very little record of clothing just "ripping" all over the place and all the time.
    Its entirly possible that hand sewn fabric could well be VERY sturdy.

    (as an aside the "hand sewn kendo armor is MORE expensive and more durable than the "machine sewn" versions.)

    (as and another aside the wrapping of the katana--a good one that is--is woven silk and it stands up quite well to the constant, consistant abrasion of daily practice--explain that)

    C-The use of a tough and rugged underjacket would have been commenly worn under armor--so a tough material did in fact exsist.

    D-The use of various "capture" weapons we used by police and other authories--a number of them we used to wrap and trap the CLOTHING of those attacked--if its tough enough to catch with a spiky weapon and hold the person wearing it--it should be tough enough to grab.

    E-Some koryu ryu have techniques that call for a grab on the clothing.

    F-The reason that such techniques might well be in the minority is that most techniques were used vs hands/wrist etc.
    Grabbing a guys jacket would not really stop him from grabbing A WEAPON AND KILLING YOU.

    ie its NOT the jacket that is so different--its the outlook and mindset that "different."

    G-Some techniques could well have been directed vs the armor a foe was wearing--surely the armor was strong enough to get a good grip on and strong enough to use to throw?

    Grabbing sections of armor and grabbing the shoulder/lapel/sleeve of a judo-gi are not that different.

    H-Koryu techniqes were developed aand used by pratical folks---why could you not just make a small change in where you grab--the sleeve rather a wrist--when folks STOPPED carring weapons and you no longer had to worry about getting stabbed?


    And that just off the top of my head.



    Chris Thomas
    Last edited by cxt; 2nd October 2005 at 03:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cxt
    Chris Moon


    So the argument boils down to clothing?

    Ok, look at it like this.

    A-The heavy cotten uwagei (sp???) seems to be pretty widespread amoung koryu folks---you mean to tell me that it is also a "modern" invention?

    A heavier quilted top seems to have been pretty widespread in colder weather.

    B-Hand sewing--fabrics that have been hand sewn have been around vastly longer than "machine sewn" cloth--and yet we have very little record of clothing just "ripping" all over the place and all the time.
    Its entirly possible that hand sewn fabric could well be VERY sturdy.

    (as an aside the "hand sewn kendo armor is MORE expensive and more durable than the "machine sewn" versions.)

    (as and another aside the wrapping of the katana--a good one that is--is woven silk and it stands up quite well to the constant, consistant abrasion of daily practice--explain that)

    C-The use of a tough and rugged underjacket would have been commenly worn under armor--so a tough material did in fact exsist.

    D-The use of various "capture" weapons we used by police and other authories--a number of them we used to wrap and trap the CLOTHING of those attacked--if its tough enough to catch with a spiky weapon and hold the person wearing it--it should be tough enough to grab.

    E-Some koryu ryu have techniques that call for a grab on the clothing.

    F-The reason that such techniques might well be in the minority is that most techniques were used vs hands/wrist etc.
    Grabbing a guys jacket would not really stop him from grabbing A WEAPON AND KILLING YOU.

    ie its NOT the jacket that is so different--its the outlook and mindset that "different."

    G-Some techniques could well have been directed vs the armor a foe was wearing--surely the armor was strong enough to get a good grip on and strong enough to use to throw?

    Grabbing sections of armor and grabbing the shoulder/lapel/sleeve of a judo-gi are not that different.

    H-Koryu techniqes were developed aand used by pratical folks---why could you not just make a small change in where you grab--the sleeve rather a wrist--when folks STOPPED carring weapons and you no longer had to worry about getting stabbed?


    And that just off the top of my head.



    Chris Thomas
    Chris,

    I don't disagree with anything you have written there. Are you sure you are not directing this to Mukeido???
    Christopher Moon

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    Chris Moon

    Sorry, my mistake--my fault totally!!!!

    Mis-read whom posted what---kinda why I seldom log in on the week-ends.

    I will e-mail the mods to see if they can delete your name form the top of my response.

    Again, sorry.

    Chris Thomas

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    Question Why isn't there a Naginata or "polearms" forum?

    Maybe I am asking the wrong question. Granted that e-budo doesn't have a Naginata (or Yari / any polearm) forum, does anyone know of one around the net?

    Thanks!
    Tal Bustan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal
    Maybe I am asking the wrong question. Granted that e-budo doesn't have a Naginata (or Yari / any polearm) forum, does anyone know of one around the net?

    Thanks!
    Tal Bustan.
    I'm guessing it would be a pretty low-traffic forum, as there simply aren't that many people practicing naginata or other polearms.

    But if you have a question, you might do better in the Koryu History and Tradition subforum than in Sword Arts; unless of course you're thinking about atarashii naginata, in which case you might want to take it to Gendai Budo.

    Hope this helps,

    Fred Little

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    I believe we had one when we first started E-Budo, but no one used it. After a while John Linsdey slimmed up E-Budo to what we have now. If there is enough interest I can start up a atarashii naginata forum. For koryu naginata questions we can just use the "Koryu Forum".
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal
    Maybe I am asking the wrong question. Granted that e-budo doesn't have a Naginata (or Yari / any polearm) forum, does anyone know of one around the net?

    Thanks!
    Tal Bustan.
    http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

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    Received some responses through PM's. Here you go.
    Last edited by George Kohler; 27th January 2006 at 03:57.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  11. #56
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    So, now there's a forum. What shall we fill it with?

    FWIW, I generally do Atarashii Naginata with Capital Area Budokai class in Arlington, VA. Currently 1-dan.
    Joshua Badgley
    Member of the Capital Area Budokai
    http://cabudokai.org

    これやこの行くも帰るもわかれつつ
    知るも知らぬも逢坂の関

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    Awesome, what is the testing like for 1st dan in the Naginata style that you study?
    I've never swung one, so I haven't the foggiest clue.
    Have you cut with one? If so, how do they compare to a shinken?
    Thanks,
    Gil
    Gil Zepeda

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    Atarshii Naginata ("New" Naginata--it used to be part of the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei as one of the other arts until it had enough members to form its own renmei, ZNNR (Zen Nihon Naginata Renmei). There is now an International Naginata Federation, and, in the US, there is the USNF (United States Naginata Federation).

    Grading requirements are actually online, here: http://www.naginata.org/usnf/USNFDanStandards.htm

    FYI, this is much more like modern kendo in many ways. It is often closely tied in with traditional koryu organizations, like Tendo Ryu, but there is no direct association I am aware of--I believe that was mainly for political reasons. There was nothing quite like 'seitei iai' for the various ryuha (or, perhaps more appropriately, atarashii naginata *is* the seitei).

    As for tameshigiri--I have never done it with a live naginata, although I must admit that doing tameshigiri for battodo has made me more concious of things like hasuji, movement, connection of the hips and body with the naginata, etc. (not that I'm doing it right--just that I see myself screwing up that much more often ).
    Joshua Badgley
    Member of the Capital Area Budokai
    http://cabudokai.org

    これやこの行くも帰るもわかれつつ
    知るも知らぬも逢坂の関

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Yuma
    Awesome, what is the testing like for 1st dan in the Naginata style that you study?
    I've never swung one, so I haven't the foggiest clue.
    Have you cut with one? If so, how do they compare to a shinken?
    Thanks,
    Gil
    I've swung a real naginata, though I've never cut with one. They're quite heavy, much more forward weighted than a shinken or a wooden naginata. Good tenouchi and body movements are thus even more critical, if you don't want to be jerked around by the weapon.
    Yulin Zhuang
    <a href="http://www.ny-jss.org/">Nichibukan
    Japanese Swordsmanship Society (JSS)</a>

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    Hi, many variants of kukishin ryu bojutsu have a number of bo including in their teachings. I believe there is a bo with 2 large weights on the end that resemble dumbells, the idea is to strike with those.

    There is another bo type weapon which is very very thick and used to blocking cuts from tachi, but it's thick enough to block hits from axes, hammers or just about anything else as well. If I remember correctly it's in the shape of an octagon.

    According to what I've been told, some bo of the kukishin ryu had stones attached to the end of them for use in striking as well.
    Cory Burke
    ゴゴゴ!

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