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Thread: Koryu Snobs Revisited

  1. #1
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    Greetings,

    I was having a discussion with some new students (less than 3 years) to the martial arts.

    In it I explained the term 'Koryu', and after a thorough explanation, I was asked the following question:

    "Oh, I know those people they are the guys who look 'down' on the 'Do' arts. Do they think they are elitists by studying real, but old, combat arts?"

    Nevertheless, I was surprised that somehow these new students had heard this version of the Koryu art and its students.

    Any thoughts?

    Regards,
    TommyK

    ------------------
    Tommy K. Militello

  2. #2
    Dokanyama Guest

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    I think all of us want to believe in what we are doing.Many of us, myself included, started in what ever form we did, just because it was the closest or the only choice there was. Even without experience, or knowledge of what else there is out there, many of us suffered from the attitude that what we are doing is the best martial art one could possable be do.

    This attitude is commonly found in both koryu and and gendai budo, both in the States and Japan.

    A lot of people want to do Koryu, or Gracie Jujutsu, or whatever just because it's popular today. Think of the Ninja craze and all the people who got involved with that in the not so distant past.

    I think it's natural to have this attitude at first, especially with people new to budo or people who are young, though certainly not everyone has this attitude. The mark of maturity in budo is when you begin to take confidence in what you do, and let other people do what they want to do without making value judgements based on style or what have you.There is always room for critical discussion conducted in a "professional" way.


    Telling lies about your linage, rank, Ryu... these are exceptions, and if Japanese budo is to be maintained then this shouldn't be tolerated from anyone. Mistakes are natural and should be forgiven. Attitudes like those described in Tommyk's post are to be expected and we should do our best to guide the less experienced with tollerance and whatever wisdom we have.

    Those who have been in Budo a while, and yet haven't developed the maturity to not feel threatend by other budo and budoka should perhaps be taken with a very large grain of salt.

    Thomas James
    Niiza, Japan

  3. #3
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    I want to hear more about the supermodels. Any of them do koryu (or gendai)? Seriously, though, the other side of the coin from koryu elitism is gendai sour grapes. Enjoy what you study, whatever it is. There is value to be found in (almost) all of it.

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    Dave Drawdy

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    I think there is nothing wrong with well placed elitism.

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    If all your practices are to be pre-1868, then all the right-wing fascism needs to go, as does most of the Zen, as these are 20th century accretions. Meanwhile more interest needs to be given to revolvers (used by samurai during various late Tokugawa assassinations)and such. (Handguns are pre-1868, even in Japan.)

    Normally, though, koryu is simply a nice name for what in English would normally be called creative anachronism. Nothing wrong with that -- creative anachronism is a nineteenth century concept associated with the Romantics -- but the idea is more English than Japanese.



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    Joe
    http://ejmas.com

  6. #6
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    I think that practitioners of koryu arts often have good reason to look down on practitioners of modern arts. I think elitism promotes excellence.

    -M-

  7. #7
    ericDZR Guest

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    i like well placed supermodels!!

  8. #8
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    Elitism of this nature, Margaret, only promotes excellence within the minds of the snobbish elite.

    An elitist who looks down on others is a legend in his/her own mind.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

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    Jeff - just take a look at your local karate McDojo. There is not much there for me to be proud of. I feel that one should not look down on another's technique just because one trains in another style.

    However, if I see poor technique and poor understanding of karate, I cannot respect these practitioners.

    I think there is less Koryu to go around, and while politics and poor technique also exist in the koryu, it is less pervasive than in the more modern arts. Overall, the modern arts seem to have more problems.

    -M-

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    That is mainly because there is more of them.

    The best budo people I know are humble.

  11. #11
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    I look around, and most of the McDojo's around here are supposedly koryu.

    Margaret, my feeling is that you are over-generalizing.

    BTW, Shotokan is not considered a koryu; in fact, many practitioners of the truly ancient Japanese arts do not consider any of the karate styles to be koryu. Also, the Okinawans (the innovators of karate) were quite aghast at what they felt Funakoshi had done by "modernizing" and "japanifying" karate.

    They lamented what they perceived to be the decline and bastardization of their art by one of their fellow Okinawans whom they considered to have "sold-out" karate.

    Personally, I feel the Okinawans were being too traditionally stiff and resistant to evolution. I think Funakoshi was brilliant, adaptive, and imaginative.

    But I do find it interesting to hear you making the same generalizations about "modern" systems when you are a practitioner of a modern system.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

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    Wow!!! What did I start?

    I like the logic stream Ms. Lo used in stating her position on elitism, but I personally lean more toward Mr. Cook's position on the subject.

    By the by, I have found that the more serious and talented individuals in the arts have little to say about this kind of subject, they just do.

    One of the first things I really admired about studing my art was that anyone can 'talk the talk', but on the mat no one lies! Intellectual discussions like this are fine, but the bottom line is can one 'walk the talk'.

    I personally feel that anything one can learn something positive from is worth learning, and if it works in the street, all the better. I'm sure there are moves meant to be used against someone in armour, but that can be adapted for use in todays worls.

    I thank all of you for your replies, and I ask you...Can not even the McDojo's be of some use?

    Regards,
    TommyK




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    Tommy K. Militello

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    One fellow had an interesting take on the role of "Mc-Dojos". His view was that they served as a sort of coarse filter that would tend to attract those with more immature motivations and leave the rest of the more serious dojos free to practice their arts in an adult atmosphere. Those who attend the McDojos and feel that something is lacking will tend to eventually look to more established arts, if they do their homework. Some people are not prepared for the responsibilities of a traditional art, so the market would seem to have provided an abundance of alternatives. The only negative results that seem to come of this are either the aggression that comes from a pseudo martial path without sufficient philosophical grounding, or the belief that one's skills will be sufficient to serve as a substitute for good manners and common sense. When I see a demonstration where people are kicking guns out of other people's hands, I cannot help but find myself dwelling in a state of Social Darwinist reflection. Ah well..

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    Krzysztof M. Mathews
    " For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
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  14. #14
    Tetsutaka Guest

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    Handgun defenses as they pertain to Social Darwinism??? WOW I like this forum...

    I coudn't agree more. So, that begs the question:

    Are McDojos the "koryu minor leagues"?

  15. #15
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    I'd lilke to get back to the elitism thing. The implication seems to be that koryu are better just because they are koryu. Huge overgeneralization. Is the value of koryu that they are old, or 'authentic', or battle proven? Or is it that they preserve cultural roots of certain martial traditions?
    I recently attended (and participated in) a martial arts demo (kobudo embu) at a Shinto shrine in Yokohama, Japan. Twelve major schools did demos, mostly of koryu arts. Some of them were simply hilarious. One style began their forms on tiptoe, pointer finger extended out to the side and down. Another demonstrated swinging huge wooden paddle-things, to the accompaniment of very loud breathing. Certain of the sword forms of some of these schools are so far removed from actual useful techniques that they are now indistinguishable from kabuki dancing. Are these schools/forms inherently worthy of respect because they are koryu? There are some very strange things that go under the name of koryu.
    Pride in your style is fine, even healthy. But elitism is by nature exclusionary, sometimes blindly. I agree that there are McDojos out there that demean and diminish the value of martial arts, but to disrespect the students, who may not know any better (yet) but are practicing with good spirit and intent, is an injustice.

    Ok, enough soapbox, fire away.



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    Dave Drawdy

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