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Thread: Koryu Snobs Revisited

  1. #16
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    Sorry, double posting

    [This message has been edited by hyaku (edited 06-03-2000).]

  2. #17
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hyaku:

    "Oh, I know those people they are the guys who look 'down' on the 'Do' arts. Do they think they are elitists by studying real, but old, combat arts?"
    Any thoughts?

    Regards,
    TommyK
    ..................
    I don't think it applies here in Japan. Saying "I do both" is something I have to write in forums. Gendai Budo is also a term I had never heard of until I joined.

    There are differences between older and newer styles and sadly too many. To the extent that very soon some forms will bear no resemblance whatsoever to their original standards. Already in Kendo we see a strike instead of a cut. not what constitutes a good cut but what we need to do to get a point. Yet we call it the way of the sword?

    Without a doubt if you want to find something new look at the old.

    I would not say "elite" but a pride in being able to study and carry on an old tradition. If anything the peacock syndrome seemed to be far less evident. People seem to be far more interested in practicing an art rather than "look what colour belt I have!"

    I would also leave out the word "combat". Reading many threads there seems to be a very fine line if almost non between combat/self defence and Chinese and Japanese Arts.

    American Indians dance on their toes and point a lot. Look what modern (at that time) western martial ways did for them.

    ........................

    Hyakutake http://www2.saganet.ne.jp/sword
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  3. #18
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    Post Koryu Snobs Revisited

    A member writes of a recent conversation with a new student who suggests the koryu bugei are the province of elitists who “look down” on others and who are snobs in regards to their arts.
    A lengthy gallery of philippics results from the post, decrying modern budo, defending elitism, appealing to the virtues of humility, and so on. And on. All of the replies, to my puzzlement, seem to accept prima facie the “fact” that koryu are indeed elitist and encourage snobbery or that at least its representatives display such attitudes.

    Am I the only reader who wonders why the original contributor to this topic didn’t respond to the newcomer’s statement by asking for some examples of this alleged elitism?

    Given that there are probably fewer than a hundred or so exponents of legitimate koryu in the United States, how on earth did a newcomer have intercourse with any of them to have formed such a firsthand view of snobbery? Given that a large percentage of those exponents, for various reasons, are involved in more than one koryu (as well as in the modern budo which they are accused of disdaining), how could they reasonably insist any one ryu is “the best” or that a koryu is “better” than some modern form?

    Which ryu and which individuals representing them demonstrate elitism and exactly how do they do it? In more than 30 years of experience with koryu, in meeting a few headmasters of them in Japan and many of their senior members, I have not really encountered this presumed elitism. I’m curious that a “new student” would have such a radically different perception, more so that so many contributors on the topic here would as well. It would be informative for some of them to relate the details, providing some examples of legitimate practitioners of legitimate ryu who affected these attitudes.

  4. #19
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    I think the image of koryu practicioners as being elitist comes mainly from the fact that for non-japanese, about the only way to learn koryu is to go to Japan. The few who have made the quest and progressed far enough to to be able to teach their art, AND have returned to the west can't be bothered to talk about it. If you don't want to practice, they aren't interested om talking about it, and they're not terribly interested in debating with people who aren't willing to make the sacrifices they have (I have some theories about this as well). This can easily give people the idea that they are elitist, when they're really just far more interested in training than in talking.

    Peter Boylan

  5. #20
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    Dave,

    I personally have not met anyone that fits that description. My responses were directed towards posts that were in support of elitism, and were not assumptive concerning the allegedly pervasive koryu elitism.

    I have met many elitist martial artists, but as you say, there aren't very many legitimate koryu practitioners in the U.S (myself included).

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

  6. #21
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    Another spin on Mcdojo from the presepecitve of a now retired Kyokushin fighter. Kyokushin fighters are elite karate fighters.

    I asked Saiko Shihan Oyama (9th dan Kyokushinkia/Kancho Oyama Karate) why he was lowering the intensity of the general classes, while maintaining the intensity of fighting class and private training. He stated that in order for his dojo to prosper and survive, he had to cater to a large number of students, many of whom were not interested in full contact fighting . Without these other students, he could not afford to train his top fighters.

    On the koryu side, over the last 20 years I have spoken with many koryu practitioners. My experience has been that they do not look down on Mcdojo style of martial arts, but are rather very proud of the quality of their training.

    John

  7. #22
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    I guess it's time for me to throw my hat in.
    I train in a Koryu art- Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu under Mark Jones Sensei of Napa, CA. I began training two years ago here in Madison, WI.
    I would certainly hate to think that my training makes me snobbish. Rather, I find that the training has the effect of making most of it's practicioners more humble. Part of the reason for this is that the tolerances for error do tend to be lesser than in many of the other arts that I have practiced. When you are practicing Iai-jutsu, a lapse of concentration will result in a visit to the emergency room. Many of the long time students of KSR that I have met have stories and scars from their own blades. Kobudo forms have their own tempering influence. All of the cuts have very specific targets and applications that would result in crippling or lethal injury in a live blade encounter. Even with the wooden weapons, the consequences of an ill controlled strike are quite serious, given that the targets are the same as would be attacked in "real" combat. To train with a serious senior partner will reveal to you a world of vulnerablity. Another critical element is the role of Reishiki, the ettiquette of the school. This involves being very much aware of one's proper handling and care of weapons and how one properly relates to others who are similarly armed. This is something that I have found that martial arts practicioners are not always concious of. The reason why I train in KSR is severalfold. Firstly, I find that it has a particular sort of focused intensity coupled with specific technique. I have also trained in Kendo, and enjoy that art greatly, but find that the mindset does differ. KSR has more of a pragmatic feel to it, as the techniques and footwork are not geared towards a sportive context. Consequently, I find that the practice of KSR helps greatly in my practice of Aikido. It emphasizes precise and grounded footwork, which is a real asset when one is trying to throw a larger partner.(Previously, I had difficulties with hopping and dancing my way through irimi-nage) I also find that the focus from training in the Kobudo partner forms greatly improves my zanshin for armed and unarmed practice. Perhaps one of the greatest benefits of my study, however, is the opportunity to connect to a sense of history. As I see my martial arts practice as a form of ancestor worship, this gives me an insight into some of the realities that my predecessors must have faced in combat of ages past. I certainly don't believe that my practice of a Koryu art makes me any better than other martial artists. My continued practice of Aikido gives me the experience of working with people who have achieved an extraordinary level of skill and character which inspires me in my own endeavors. As we are all working together towards self realisation, the path is a matter of personal preference. The path and it's exploration is it's own best reward.

    ------------------
    Krzysztof M. Mathews
    " For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
    -Rudyard Kipling

  8. #23
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

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    In my opinion maybe "exclusive" is the better word.

    Koryu are taught to smaller groups, so individual instruction is better dispensed. Many koryu teachers have few students. Those few students are tested in terms of character for some time before being taught "the good stuff."

    Not to say that some modern budo dojo do not have the same sort of things, but since there are far fewer koryu teachers and practitioners, practice would be more exclusive than elitist.

    Since I think most koryu teachers prefer to keep it exclusive, some may see this as elitism when it is really just the teachers preferred way to teach.

    Kit LeBlanc

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    Hello,
    If this is Dave Lowry, author, welcome to the forum. I just received one of your books as a present, looking forward to browsing through it.
    In any case, I don't think you will get much response in asking for specific examples of elitist behavior or attitude. Let's accept that it exists, and then argue whether it is justifiable or not. I think that is where some of the previous posts (mine included) were going.
    Justifiable? No. Given that this is the koryu forum, I don't wish to alienate anyone or talk bad about any art in particular. I am talking about the attitude of the practioner. Pride is ok, elitism, to me, equates to close-mindedness. Not a good way to progress in any art.



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    Dave Drawdy

  10. #25
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    I don't believe anyone participating in these discussions is truly an elitist. The koryu instructors I know are certainly not elitists nor exclusivists.

    The elitists I have met have been a sad lot; without exception they have had their heads jammed into the sand, and shield their lack of self-esteem behind their rigid interpretations. This is really a shame, as they are good martial artists, and the only thing that keeps them from achieving greatness is themselves.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

  11. #26
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    It's been my experience that the most elite and snobbish martial arts instructors are those who claim koryu origins but have little or no real koryu experience. Possibly, the so-called new student may have encountered one of these who claimed to be of the koryu school but in fact was not. It seems to me that their attitude of elitism is more of a cover for their questionable credentials. Those who have actually studied koryu generally seem pretty open about it.

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    Don Cunningham

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    Greetings to all,

    I am honored to reply to a post from Mr. Lowry. I have been a fan of your writings for years.

    First off, please understand I am the originator of the thread concerning suppossed elitism of Koyru practitioners. It came about in an after-class discussion with several new students in our school of Korean Karate and Self-Defense.

    As we do not practice Koyru arts , I answered their questions on the general topic of Koyru arts. One of their number, made this comment and I did inquire where they received this impression.

    The answer was 'around'. On further inquiry this meant various sites on the internet and talking with friends of friends who practice various martial arts in general.

    I did not mean to create the impression that I was making this statement, rather I was just curious as to what the E-Budo community, at-large, thought of this statement.

    I have the greatest respect for all those who practice any martial art that teaches something useful, especially Koyru arts. In the past I have asked Wayne Muromoto, of 'Furyu' fame, if he could recommend any Koyru systems in and around NYC. As, I would like to sample what these arts are about. Wayne did not know of any Koryu systems in NYC, but now I am happy that this thread allows me to ask you, and any other E-Budo member where a Koyru system exists in the NYC area.

    As I close, let me reiterate that I have the greatest respect for Mr. Lowry and the Koryu arts, and wish to share that respect by having someone of your stature reply to all of us on this specific thread.

    Thank you,

    TommyK

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    Tommy K. Militello

  13. #28
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    It has been my experience that mastering the skill of putting a sword away without cutting one's fingers does not always translate into equal skill at dealing with family or coworkers. Thus it is not impossible that some koryu practitioners are arrogant twits.

    It also has been my experience that when one seeks quantifiable stories of rudeness and arrogance, one asks face-to-face, in letters, or in e-mail, rather than on a public forum. So perhaps that is why people have not named names.

    But I could be wrong; perhaps koryu masters are truly so much different from the rest of us.

    Meanwhile, as long as we are discussing quantification, I am curious to know the source of the datum there are only "a hundred or so exponents of legitimate koryu in the United States." Is there some published roster? If so, where does one obtain a copy?

    Personally, though, I'd guess that the number of legitimate practitioners is measured in hundreds rather than tens. Donn Draeger, for example, claimed sixteen students in 1976. Assuming normal class sizes and turnover, that implies dozens of students in that lineage alone. If this is true, then why downplay the actual numbers? Elitism is certainly one explanation that comes to mind.




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    Joe
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  14. #29
    Tetsutaka Guest

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    Does the phrase "fewer than a hundred or so exponents of legitimate koryu in the United States" not also denote a level of elitism? I think so. I also think it is well deserved and right on the money.

    People are confusing "elitist" with "arrogant". The difference is slim, but it is indeed there. The definition I found was:
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'm sorry, ladies and gentlemen, but there is nothing wrong with calling koryu elite ,per se. In fact, koryu [in terms of Japanese MA] is indeed the elite, by definition. Please take a moment to consider this, if you have not already.

    The difficulty lies in the "bagage" that comes along with the definition - a pejorative connotation, if you will.

    I have personally seen monumental arrogance on the part of certain budoka that do possess koryu scrolls. Part of the arrogance is the mistaken impression that the elite nature inherent in koryu traditions gives him the right to display such unabashed arrogance.

    Elite and arrogant - two different things that often go hand-in-hand. That is not the fault of the entity itself [in this case - koryu arts] but in the trappings and wrappings brought on by the person that seeks one and only displays the other.



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    Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

  15. #30
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    Hi Dave,

    Welcome finally to E-Budo . It took a year to get you to post... .

    Over the years, I have come across a few snobby types, but they turned out not to be koryu, even though they claimed they were.

    Some might say that the late Donn Draeger was very strong about his views, but he has been gone for awhile now, and I would not say that he was snobby.

    Dave, I think you might agree that since the 1970's koryu has had an uphill battle in many ways with the established martial arts community. Maybe the early koryu folks outside of Japan was being defensive against those who were claiming their arts were of no use in the modern world. Some might have seen this as being snobby?


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