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Thread: Koryu Snobs Revisited

  1. #31
    Tetsutaka Guest

    Question

    So do we agree all that it is no the art per se that creates the arrogance, but the people that are attracted to it that bring it along? So we are talking about the people, not the arts themselves? Needless to say, there is a difference.

    In my experience, the vast majority of truly unapologeticly arrogant individuals has consistently come not from koryu arts, but from judo. It seems to me that every opportunity I have taken to talk to one of them [teacher or student], they seem to get in a groove of spouting off like they are the last true samurai of the world. This kind of experience just puts me off.

    Then, when I tell them I practice jujutsu, I get this look like "how revoltingly unrefined" from them. Now mind you, this has been experience with less than a dozen people over 15 years. But a recent encounter with a local dojo has raised my hackles a bit.

    There's a judo/karate dojo here that calls itself American Samurai[btw, do I need to point out that "American Samurai" is an oxymoron?], that starts with <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>American Samurai is a traditional martial arts training center.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Then when you click past their splash page to the dojo page, you see: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We have all the information you need, including downloadable forms, for our upcoming State Qualifier Tournament and Referee Course (May 19-20th, 2000).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Ugh! Referees? Tournaments? ARG!

    Then you look down the page and see that they teach "Shotokan karate and Kodokan judo". Oh, that explains it. I think.

    [image from site removed t oprotect the innocent...]


    Perhaps it's just me, but I equate "traditional" with at the very least very hard work for not much reward other than a job well done. On a more "cultural" level, I expect traditional to mean "how they do it in Japan", when the word pertains to Japanese martial arts.

    Is this traditional? Like I said - Ugh.

    Perhaps if my personal experiences would have not induced me to a heightened sensitivity, I might not hold this opinion. In an effort to be fair, I have dedicated myself to meeting as many martial artists in this area as I can, in hopes of some day reporting a change of personal opinion in this regard.

    ------------------
    Houston Haynes
    "You have the right to remain silent.
    Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

    [This message has been edited by Tetsutaka (edited 06-05-2000).]

  2. #32
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Cook:
    I look around, and most of the McDojo's around here are supposedly koryu.

    Margaret, my feeling is that you are over-generalizing.

    BTW, Shotokan is not considered a koryu; in fact, many practitioners of the truly ancient Japanese arts do not consider any of the karate styles to be koryu. Also, the Okinawans (the innovators of karate) were quite aghast at what they felt Funakoshi had done by "modernizing" and "japanifying" karate.

    They lamented what they perceived to be the decline and bastardization of their art by one of their fellow Okinawans whom they considered to have "sold-out" karate.

    Personally, I feel the Okinawans were being too traditionally stiff and resistant to evolution. I think Funakoshi was brilliant, adaptive, and imaginative.

    But I do find it interesting to hear you making the same generalizations about "modern" systems when you are a practitioner of a modern system.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Jeff - I am well aware that Shotokan Karate and Karate in general are not Koryu arts. Shotokan karate is less than 100 years old and created in the 20th century out of Okinawan styles.

    It is precisely because I am a practitioner of a modern system that I decry its state. I do not believe I am over generalizing because there is such an overabundance of bad technique and poor understanding even within organizations of my acquaintance, which are recognized to be good karate organizations.

    Yet in comparison to the general run of commercial clubs, the organizations I have trained with are far and away superior.

    My feeling is that the Koryu practitioners are in general fewer in number and have not (yet) experienced the extensive commercialization that karate has suffered. Therefore, there may be a proportionally higher number of good practitioners in the Koryu than in karate.

    So in my last post, I stated that Koryu practitioners have reason to look down on some practitioners of modern arts - but whether they actually do so is open to speculation. The Koryu artists of my acquaintance are good people who are too busy with their own work to be so petty.

    Really, I define elitism to be an awareness of excellence and a willingness to state what is good vs what is poor technique. I do not see it to be a license to personally snub other martial artists. My only point in favor of elitism among Koryu practitioners is this: if it protects the Koryu arts from the commercialism that happened to karate, then good for them.

    Excuse me while I run to class, that sequined gi is hell to put on


    -M-




    [This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-05-2000).]

  3. #33
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    Mr. Haynes:
    surely it was not necessary to post the picture from the club you castigate, especially since children are depicted.

    -M-



    [This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-05-2000).]

  4. #34
    Tetsutaka Guest

    Red face

    You're right, Ms. Lo,

    People can see it for themselves. I'll remove the directlink to the image, but the site link will remain for those interested.

    ..and please, call me Houston. "Mr Haynes" is my dad.

    ------------------
    Houston Haynes
    "You have the right to remain silent.
    Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

    [This message has been edited by Tetsutaka (edited 06-05-2000).]

  5. #35
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    Will do Houston.

  6. #36
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    Mr. Svinth: My estimate of US koryu practitioners may have been too low. Fine. Quadruple it. Quintuple it. The number would still be so miniscule as to render the possibility our newcomer friend could have drawn his conclusion about koryu based upon firsthand interaction with these individuals most unlikely. (Wouldn’t depend too much on the supposition that Draeger’s “16 students” implies a burgeoning koryu population here, incidentally. A)not all of those students were Americans. B)one of them, one of my teachers, since 1976 has had exactly 2 students, not exactly an exponential explosion of Malthusian proportions.)

    My possibly lowball figure of koryu adepts no more suggests elitism than would the simple observation that, say, not many Americans are devoted to the collection of erotic Hummel figurines. Exactly like the koryu, these x-rated cherubs would be exiguous, eccentric, and appealing and available to a limited audience. Mr. LeBlanc has made this point well above, explaining a crucial distinction between elitism and exclusivity.

    Mr. Lindsey: I don’t see any evidence that what little koryu is practised in the US has been involved in any battles, especially not battles for recognition. Non-commercial and limited by nature in the way they are taught, the ones I know of go to some lengths to maintain a low profile and protect their privacy. That this site receives regular inquiries about finding these groups would indicate recognition is not among the priorities of koryu dojo in this country.

    Koryu do struggle with a problem of perception, which is precisely my point. Frauds have co-opted the image of koryu. They have slapped on a coat of machismo, “Oriental mysticism,” and Clavell-like samurai romanticism. Furnishings are provided with extensive terminology mimicked from the real thing, preposterous mannerisms and etiquette, and lineages ranging from the untraceable to the absurd. These seedy properties are then advertised through an appeal to snobbery and elitism, to those prospective tenants most susceptible to the come-on: wanna-be “Anjin-san,” martially-inclined Japanophiles, and those pathetic souls who fantasize participation in the rare and unusual, whether it be Tibetan Buddhism or koryu, will somehow confer on them a mantle of the special and unique.

    I can readily believe ersatz koryu incorporate elitism. It’s probably an important part of their allure. But that is a very different proposition from the one that seems to be accepted by many e-budo members without any support of evidence; that snobbery is inherent in koryu mentalities or is a common trait of its practitioners.

    (As for my not posting previously, Mr. Lindsey; like the kid everyone considered mute until he finally complained about the eggs at breakfast one morning, up until now everything’s been just fine.)

  7. #37
    Tetsutaka Guest

    Talking

    Good points all, Mr Lowry.

    BTW, I think that was Beethoven who supposed to have been mute until he was four or so... anohter urban legend?

    ------------------
    Houston Haynes
    "You have the right to remain silent.
    Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

  8. #38
    DJM Guest

    Smile

    Hi..
    I'd like to say a couple things - firstly a big welcome to Dave, of who's work I am a very great admirer (more so considering Moving Toward Stillness inspired me to return to Aikido), even if it did take some burnt eggs to prompt him to make an appearance.
    Secondly, and I'll apologise if I sound like I'm preaching, but I think that many of the problems that have been raised above are a result of predjudice (in the sense of pre-judging) and stereotyping.
    Not, I hasten to add, necessarily conscious choices. Indeed, they are a weakness that I suspect we all succumb to, to greater or lesser degrees.
    After all, what are the issues raised in the above discussion? That the koryu arts foster elitism, or arrogance? That there are so few exponents that we cannot make an accurate judgement?
    I'd like to suggest that both of the above points are equally worthless , that we should only ever judge people - should we feel the compulsion to do even that - as individuals. Granted that individuals may often share common traits when in the same vicinity (i.e. in the same dojo, or studying the same style) but I feel it's a mistake - even if a common one (and one which I commit myself, all too regularly) - to attempt any form of generalisation on people.
    If I may make the analogy, it's very much like walking through a forest, assuming all the trees are the same. It makes the trip a lot less interesting...
    *dismounts soapbox*

    Peace,
    David

    ------------------
    Poetry of Birds,
    A Thousand Voice Melody,
    Dancing on the Waves
    -- David Marshall

  9. #39
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    Dave, thanks for sharing your perspective.

    Again, the few practitioners of authentic koryu I have met have been neither elitist (implying superiority) nor exclusive (implying disdain towards any other approach or concept).

    As you succinctly stated, it seems that the only folks who fit that bill are the insecure ones that try to claim a ridiculous/unbelievable lineage to an obscure koryu past.

    I have studied ancient, classical, modern, and combative (modern military) arts, and I can say without exception that most of these troubled individuals fell into one of two categories: classical arts and modern military combative arts.

    The funny thing is, the new western student, for the most part, could really care less about the history/lineage of an art (when starting out). They come to a class with specific needs/desires in mind, and they want to know if those needs can be met. I still cannot understand why anyone would feel the need to inflate their history and/or their art's history.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu




  10. #40
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    Thanks, Margaret. I do want to publicly state something which I think you already know: I respect you greatly, and I know you are not a snob!

    Elitism by definition implies superiority and favoritism towards the superior group. I agree with you that there are definitely superior groups of martial artists ("superior" in this case could be defined any number of ways, but we will save that fodder for another topic!).

    But to foster a feeling of elitism is to foster a trait that we all strive to diminish: that all-important attitude of mind called humility. A truly humble person will feel only pity towards the misguided; they will not feel superior.

    I can't help but think that we are slapping the "elite" label on a group that really does not desire the label.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

    [This message has been edited by Jeff Cook (edited 06-05-2000).]

  11. #41
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    For what the opinions of a newbie to koryu are worth, from my point of view , I can see a couple of sources for the "Koryu Snob". One is the mainstream martial arts media, where a number of people have suddenly become "experts" in koryu (the frauds Mr Lowry and others have refered to) and are spreading their misconceptions around to the general martial arts public, who probably don't care one way or the other. The general reader probably has just seen certain viewpoints expressed a number of times and are reacting to them through how they view martial arts (and I suspect the average reader sees no reason to move to Japan just to train in some weird art when some guy is claiming to teach it down the street). As Mr. Lowry points out, few people have had first hand contact, but everyone seems to be writing about it (at least they were a few years ago, I haven't even seen an issue of Black Belt, etc in two years), thus it is no surprise that views on koryu have become all twisted.

    I think the other source is the students who want to study some form of koryu and can't. These people have probably been influenced by the works of some of the various wannabe koryu "masters". Also alot of these people may be the same people who dojo hop to whatever various art is popular at the time. Since they usually can just hit the newest "dojo" and train right away, they probably don't like reading things like Diane Skoss' "If You Want Koryu, Come to Japan" article. How can you readily write off the opinion of someone who is readily qualified to know.... "Ahh Karate and Aikido works here, so there's no reason Koryu won't. They are just snobs cause they were lucky and trained in Japan for a long time.". I know when I personally first read that article, I was torn between the fact that I knew she was right and the fact that it was still something I didn't really want to hear, as at the time I had no means of getting over here. In my case it was a good motivator to get off my butt and get over here, but other people may just ignore what they don't want to hear and dismiss it with "snobbery" type comments.

    Personally, I'm not sure if there is really a way to really stop the "snob" comments. Again, using my very minimal personal experience, before I came here, I had read all the right koryu related stuff, I had studied Japanese history, culture and some langauge. I'd even visited Japan briefly. I thought I had a good idea what I was in for, but it ended up being very different. Not wrong, just different. Its like the difference between living in Japan and just seeing a 30 minute tv program on Japanese culture. Sure the information is right, but how you understand it is completely different when you are in the middle of it, rather than the comfort of your living room. Now I readily agree that the best way to learn koryu is to come over here, and, no surprise, I've been called a snob for it. Oh well, off to the dojo....

    Rennis Buchner

    [This message has been edited by Rennis (edited 06-06-2000).]

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    I would just like to say that the information available in Engish about Koryu is just the tip of the iceberg.

    Nothing would please me more than to see more Westerners coming to Japan to learn Japanese and study these arts. Japanese people are so obsessed with America (they don't know any other country exists outside Japan) that few people are interested in promulgating it.

    I can assure readers and contributors to e-budo that sadly the roots of the arts are gradually dissapearing as the older teachers pass on. In future all we will be left with is a sportlike art unless more people take more of an interest.

    Also even within Koryu there exists this unfortunate human frailty of too many people wanting to be a chief instead of an indian, which produces spits within groups and ryu.

    I say don't complain about snobbery. Get over here. practice and help!
    .................................

    Hyakutake

  13. #43
    MarkF Guest

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    I think I shall back my elitist, judoka backside outta here!

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    Mark F. Feigenbaum

  14. #44
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by hyaku:
    [B]I would just like to say that the information available in Engish about Koryu is just the tip of the iceberg.

    Nothing would please me more than to see more Westerners coming to Japan to learn Japanese and study these arts. Japanese people are so obsessed with America (they don't know any other country exists outside Japan) that few people are interested in promulgating it.

    I can assure readers and contributors to e-budo that sadly the roots of the arts are gradually dissapearing as the older teachers pass on. In future all we will be left with is a sportlike art unless more people take more of an interest.

    Also even within Koryu there exists this unfortunate human frailty of too many people wanting to be a chief instead of an indian, which produces spits within groups and ryu.

    I say don't complain about snobbery. Get over here. practice and help!
    .................................

    Hyakutake http://www2.saganet.ne.jp/sword

    Tosa Eishin updated June 1st. Start of 35 pages of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Ipponme-Seiza Nobu


  15. #45
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    Hyaku said
    "I can assure readers and contributors to e-budo that sadly the roots of the arts are gradually dissapearing as the older teachers pass on. In future all we will be left with is a sportlike art unless more people take more of an interest."

    Now I don't know jack about koryu compared to people like Hyaku (I don't really know jack about koryu at all really), but even I have come face to face with this myself when Peter Boylan and I stumbled across an Iai ryuha (or maybe remains of a ryuha would be more correct) in Shiga last year. All that was left were the techniques and only 2 people knew them. It wasn't small because of snobbery (heck they were more than happy to show us the techniques and tell us what they knew), it was small because no one has any interest or bothered to ask about it. Even the branch of Hoki ryu I am in only has about 5 people currently involved and I've only even met 2 of them. If elite involves having very few members, then alot of koryu are elite by default simply due to lack of interest. One of my favorite quotes in this area involves a discussion between my jo sensei and one of my sempai (who has been doing iai for years and seems pretty knowledgable about Budo). Sensei, "OK, next year I think its time we start working on some of the koryu Jo stuff". Sempai, with look of shock and panic on his face, "You mean there's koryu too?!?!".


    "I say don't complain about snobbery. Get over here. practice and help!"

    Amen

    Rennis Buchner

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