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Thread: Koryu Snobs Revisited

  1. #46
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Cook:

    Elitism by definition implies superiority and favoritism towards the superior group...to foster a feeling of elitism is to foster a trait that we all strive to diminish: that all-important attitude of mind called humility.

    I can't help but think that we are slapping the "elite" label on a group that really does not desire the label.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

    [This message has been edited by Jeff Cook (edited 06-05-2000).]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    I can agree with you whole heartedly. I guess the real problem is semantics. Setting high standards should not by itself stick anyone with the label of being "elitist" with all the arrogance that it connotes.

    Let's turn this question around a bit - assuming that a koryu artist of your acquaintance is something of a snob, would you still go to learn something from him or her?

    BTW - I am a snob.... a food snob though I do sink to eat the occasional McBurger.

    -M-

  2. #47
    Tetsutaka Guest

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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Cook:
    snipElitism by definition implies superiority and favoritism towards the superior group. I agree with you that there are definitely superior groups of martial artists ("superior" in this case could be defined any number of ways, but we will save that fodder for another topic!).

    But to foster a feeling of elitism is to foster a trait that we all strive to diminish: that all-important attitude of mind called humility. A truly humble person will feel only pity towards the misguided; they will not feel superior.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Jeff,

    Great post. I couldn't agree with you more. That is why I stated in another thread that there is a difference between an elite organization, and the arrogance of any membership. I think there is also a problem with the term "elitism".

    There is definitely a pejorative connotation in "elitism" that I think in some cases is well-deserved. To state that "koryu arts are an elite form of martial arts" is one thing. [I would dare say it is a dimple statement of fact.] To say that their constituency are by and large "elitist" is another. The connotation is completely different. Go look it up in the dictionary and see exactly what I mean.

    BTW, the same applies to any organization, be it koryu or gendai -- karate, judo, aikido, jujutsu, et al - ad infinitum - ad nauseum...

    "Elitism" is proffered by "elitists". Take your pick as to who is who and what is what...



    ------------------
    Houston Haynes
    "You have the right to remain silent.
    Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

  3. #48
    BrianV Guest

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    Margaret,
    Your question about whether I would go to learn under an elitist snob, Koryu or not, is an interesting one.
    I believe in the pursuit of excellence, physical, mental and spiritual. I have never achieved it in any of the three. No one I have met so far has achieved it.
    For myself, a technique is only a technique, known by myself or not. It is the fostering spirit of the person that interests me.
    If someone is so caught up with themelves or their traditions, or their lineage that they look down upon others without endeavoring to educate themselves fully in regards to the other style or persons strengths, then this person is not allowing themselves the opportunity to grow and develop.
    This is not someone who, in all probability, I would have great success developing characer or spirituality with.
    I will wait and learn the same technique or concepts with someone who is more open and humble.
    It is enough of a blight on the arts in general that we have elitists who, in pursuit of their own perfection, disregard or, even worse, attempt to discredit others of alternative beliefs or practices.
    I have always worked under the direction of a simple line, "every peson is my better, that I may learn from them". This tenet has served me well in the past and has helped me to progress.
    I have a question for you, if some of the older Masters were still around, (Kano, Ueshiba, Funakoshi, etc...) would they turn their backs on the less traditional arts, or would they be learning combat handgun techniques along with Kali and Pentjak Silat?

    Respectfully submitted,


    [This message has been edited by BrianV (edited 06-06-2000).]

  4. #49
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    Brian - I feel that without a doubt, any of the old guys, Mr. Kano, Mr. Funakoshi would never have left their teacher's work behind even if they parted from their teachers.

    If however, their teachers studied silat etc... then they would have trained and taught silat. They are Japanese after all.

    -M-

  5. #50
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    When you want to learn to break heads, you don't go to college professors, you go to head-breakers. When you want to learn history and tradition, you don't go to a dance studio, you go to a college. And when you want to talk about character-development, you don't go to head-breakers, you go to a seminary or a philosophy class.

    Where you go wrong is when you go to professors to learn to break heads, or head-breakers to learn situational ethics.

    As for arrogance, well, if you can walk the talk, then you're stating fact, not brag. But if you can't, then no matter how impressive the toilet paper on your walls, you're still a self-inflated balloon.

    As for the older masters you mention, my guess is that Kano would have been organizing seminars for the Kenshusei while the other two gentlemen would have been ignoring outside developments. Why? Well, that's what they did when they were alive, so I can't imagine they'd do things much differently if reincarnated.

  6. #51
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

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    Joe,

    I like that. But what if you want to break heads, learn history, and develop your character?

    I think the best combine these attributes.

    Kit

  7. #52
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    Kit --

    The answer to that one is simple: Train with three different people.

    This process is cheaper, faster, more efficient, and most germane to this discussion, more Japanese. (Think Meiji -- the Army learned from the French and Prussians, the Navy learned from the British, and the railroaders learned from J.J. Hill of the Great Northern.)

    ------------------
    Joe
    http://ejmas.com

  8. #53
    MarkF Guest

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    Kit,
    To do it appropriately, you would have to reverse the order in your post. One may be better at breaking heads if he developed his character, learned his history (or herstory), and then broke the appropriote heads. Hell, there are some world leaders who did just that.

    ------------------
    Mark F. Feigenbaum

  9. #54
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

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    Mark,

    Mark, to me, what you just described is the essence of Budo.

    Kit

  10. #55
    Tetsutaka Guest

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    Wow, erudite and macho all at the same time...

    I think I'm in love.

    Mark, please don't take that personally, it's the concept I'm talking about...

    ------------------
    Houston Haynes
    "You have the right to remain silent.
    Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

    [This message has been edited by Tetsutaka (edited 06-07-2000).]

  11. #56
    MarkF Guest

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    I was going to stay out of this completely, and indeed, I did say so on my rather short previous post, but this discussion concerns something, not dying, but which is dead. It Doesn't exist except in the minds fo those who can "prove" his/her "koryu art" exists. My experience with the so-called classics is limited, but I was involved long enough to know a snob when I see one. They even post here, and then denigrate their own students for "giving away the secret" of the art, the "ura." They make unconscionable demands on these students, but partake in the very thing they see as objectionable. Most here who were around during this subject matter in the Aikijj threads know of which I speak. When the "jig is up," they suddenly agree with your assessments and then disappear....only to return everytime someone rides the soapbox again. But I am not going to give examples because others, including Mr. PJ Popie have made this patently clear. On a sidenote, another who fits, at least in the elitest snobbery department is Mr. Houston Haynes. In one short phrase, he paints a picture of all judoka as snobs. I thought this thread was to be based on koryu or tradional arts. Oh, I forgot, judo is a combative "sport" and could not possibly be taken seriously here. Well, excuuuuse me. More than thirty-seven years at doing something is not to be taken seriously because it is not koryu. Traditional? Whatever. What is the difference? And according to Houston, judoka are snobs. Every last one of us, and that is based on conversation with judoka only known to Mr. Haynes, and with proof of it from a website. Well, we all know that a website is all the proof you need of something to make it true. My fault. I thought this thread was supposed to be a discussion, not attacks on a group based on the meanderings of one who "knows."

    The fact is that koryu is dead and has been for a long time. Even people who are honest enough to admit it are not allowed this priviledge of taking a rest on all the rhetoric, but instead, is pushed into a position of "playing along" so one's students are happy, and may give the ultimate salute to newer arts which are essentially older ryu, but without the the seething hatred for the public disemmination of "something for everyone." Sure, I will go so far to say that even in what I do, the snobs outnumber the true "artist" three to one, four to one. Dave Lowry gives even that concerning the numbers of koryu students, something which said students utilize as advertising what they do by advertising that we don't advertise and thus do not want any students. Right. So I would think, if one is to believe this, that koryu "masters" self-publish through vanity press and give away their words, but only to the consumer of koryu arts. It seems I recall an AJJ master who has published a book, not for the income, but so that the "secrets" be known to a wider audience, but the ura and hiden mokuroku known to only the "better quality" of students. I've also got a bridge for sale.

    So what is the truth? Traditional/classcal bugei (Mr. Lowry's word) have been dying out since they first appeared, and continue to do so, but with the names changed to protect the innocent. The lineage thing is such a monumental lie that every one should give it a chuckle every time he/she steps onto a mat. Just recently I came upon a website which made the claim that the 'te arts, namely karate (Okinawan), was developed in 1500 and then proceeded to name names. Well, the term judo first appeared in the eighteenth century, and this is not in dispute, so why shouldn't judo be lumped in with everything else NOT "modern?" Most koryu trace lineage back at least that far, with "proof" in writing because somebody's son said as much. Well, if that is the measuring stick, then we must also believe that the entire Takeda clan which, on some websites, is "traced" back 1000 years, and that the Takedas could walk through walls. Yep. Says so right here in the scrolls.

    Now for the apology for what I have just written. I have no ill will toward anyone who claims anytning, just those whose noses are above the acrid odor of his own stink. This seems to be a constant. I apologize to all those (and there are many) who simply go on and practice the Japanese fighting arts (combative sports as well) with the only intention being to learn, study, teach, or write about it. I have met writers who are so honest that it surely is hurting sales of their work. There are teachers who do not care what others, like myself think, and will ignore this rant, and those of others. I mean no harm to anyone, I am just like the minority of players in this game who seek the truth. No doubt that I will be proven wrong, as Thomas Jefferson said when he made his assessment of his slaves. It seems today, it is not all that different in the JMA. I say give your facts, say from where they come, and then give your opinion on why they are or are not true. We go to school, read and study history books, which is nothing more than cultivated opinion, and we are told to accept it as gospel. It seems History 101 has not changed much.



    ------------------
    Mark F. Feigenbaum

  12. #57
    MarkF Guest

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    Houston,
    I didn't take anything here seriously. If you meant the "joke" I was making, believe me it was only a feeble attempt at humor. Now that I read it, it not only is about budo, but about conquering as well. C'est le guerre. Pardon my french, really. This is a phrase in which I really have never taken note to spell correctly



    ------------------
    Mark F. Feigenbaum

  13. #58
    MarkF Guest

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    A post script to Houston Haynes. Please do not take the above post seriously. I was only responding to the course of this thread, and the acute generalizations which appear seemingly purposeful, but are not. I didn't take your post concerning the one so-called judo website seriously. It was only an excuse to write an opinion, and said opinion was not about you personally.

    Best Regards,

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    Mark F. Feigenbaum

  14. #59
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    Thanks to all who responded to my question!

    I'm sorry if the topic upset some, but I am happy that the question got Mr. Lowry to enter the fray. I enjoy his writtings and I hope he shares more with us on E-Budo.

    Regards,
    TommyK

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    Tommy K. Militello

  15. #60
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    Let me suggest that the koryu are "elusive" rather than "elitist" or "exclusive". I think this terms suits both the koryu schools and perhaps their teachers/exponents.

    Are the Koryu dying? Well, one might think so. Much like European fencing or Viking axework, there is not much call for these skills in the modern era, and therefore not much interest in learning them.

    As a result, the arts themselves are somewhat elusive because instruction of any kind, much less quality instruction, is so very difficult to find. Once found, legitimate koryu teachers/exponents are generally very particular about who they bring into the fold.

    In my experience (primarily with Shinto Muso-ryu Jo), koryu exponents view their study and practice as stewardship of a great cultural asset which happens to be a martial art. As a result they take their practice and the choice of potential students/training partners/successors very seriously. This doesn't mean they are snooty or demeaning.

    Again in my experience, seasoned koryu practitioners are very approachable and accessible to folks who respect their arts and take them seriously. Do they have strong opinions about people who, without benefit of genuine experience, prattle on about koryu ... when perhaps these people should just keep their mouths closed? Sure, wouldn't you if people were belittling something you treasured?

    To put it another way ... what if, instead of martial artists, we were discussing the rare folks who carry on traditions like the indigo-dyeing of Japan, the dulcimer music of Appalachia or the batik painting of India? If one were to seek these folks out and ask to learn their craft, they would almost certainly be met with the reserved caution we often see in koryu exponents and mistake for elitism. The only difference is, I doubt we'd consider them elitist.

    Instead, we probably consider them artisans, committed to perfecting their craft and finding the right people to whom they might pass on the cultural asset with which they were entrusted.

    ------------------
    Doug Daulton

    [This message has been edited by Doug Daulton (edited 06-12-2000).]

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