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Thread: Koryu Snobs Revisited

  1. #61
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    Doug,

    Good post. I have been trying to think of a way to put the difference between snobbery and elitism and just plain being "picky" about who we share with. You hit it right on the head of the ol nail.

    Looking forward to JOhio! See you soon.



    ------------------
    Chuck Clark
    Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
    http://www.jiyushinkai.org

  2. #62
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph Svinth:
    When you want to learn to break heads, you don't go to college professors, you go to head-breakers. When you want to learn history and tradition, you don't go to a dance studio, you go to a college. And when you want to talk about character-development, you don't go to head-breakers, you go to a seminary or a philosophy class.

    Where you go wrong is when you go to professors to learn to break heads, or head-breakers to learn situational ethics.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Excellent point Mr. Svinth.

    It is the rare teacher who can legitimately provide instruction in two of these three key areas of study (head-breaking/combat, history/tradition or character development). And, the legitimate teacher of all three is the proverbial needle-in-the-haystack.

    The myth of "one teacher for life" is sown and grown by martial arts cinema. It makes for high drama (or at least creates a compelling reason for the fight scenes) when the student is "orphaned" by the death of his teacher. Now rudderless, the student lashes out in "righteous fury". If the now-dead teacher was a master of all three areas and an effective teacher to boot, would his student, now without benefit of his guidance, go on a vengeful killing spree?

    There is an old saying ... "a parent's job is to make themselves obsolete ... so the child can stand on it's own." This doesn't mean that the child will ultimately lose love or respect for their parents. Indeed, the mature child will see that his parents are not god-like ... rather they are full of human weakness and frailty.

    However, now mature and independent, the child affectionately and respectfully seeks his parents counsel on those issues in which he knows them to "expert" ... despite their weaknesses in other areas. Over time, the mature child also comes to further love and respect thier parents for thier dedication to the child's instruction and the sacrifices they made on his/her behalf.

    I think this applies to teachers as well. I've found that the best teachers are the one's who know what they can teach and what they can't. Where they are weak, they selflessly direct their students to better resources.

    Even were someone fortunate enough to find a genuine and skilled teacher of two or three of the key areas outlined above, there comes a point where all students must make the learning their own. At the risk of sounding esoteric, they must come to know, from their own experience, the real "truths" of the teaching. Else, the student simply parrots the teacher and never develops any real substance.

    To bring the topic full circle .... in koryu bujutsu, gendai budo or life in general, I think most people experience the distasteful "elitism" described here when the long-time parrot strikes out on his/her own and suddenly realizes that they never really "got it". Rather than admitting their ignorance, seeking new teachers and redoubling their efforts to genuinely learn ... these parrots hide behind a shield of elitism.

    It is in these circumstances that we see martial arts deteriorate into the "mystical world of bulls**t" as one former teacher liked to call it.

    Doug Daulton
    Reformed Parrot (I hope)




    [This message has been edited by Doug Daulton (edited 06-13-2000).]

  3. #63
    Aaron L. Seay Guest

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    From Merriam-Webster

    ELITE

    1 a: the choice part : CREAM
    b the best of a class
    c the socially superior part of society
    d a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence

    SNOB

    3 a : one who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those regarded as inferior
    b : one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste


    Well, if the elite are superior, and the snobs have an offensive air of superiority, then it would certainly be hard to separate the two. I have to agree with Mark F. on this one...those who remember all of the discussions on the old AJJ threads will recall that certain Koryu practicioners who regularly posted definately considered themselves to be elite (and were considered by the rest of us to be snobs) if for no other reason than they considered all the other arts to be inferior to theirs. A lot of people here ended up being offended by their attitudes!

    The question is, just because they consider themselves to be elite, does that necessarily make it so? The answer to that is, it does if they can manage to convince a large segment of the population that it's true. There are many established and well respected writers (Dave Lowry, Diane Skoss, etc) who study Koryu, and actively promote the idea that what they do is special somehow, or superior to that which is not Koryu. "You can't study Koryu unless you come to Japan". That's like saying you can't study Shakespeare unless you go to England. Sorry, I don't buy it.

    Others have previously posted that much of Koryu has degenerated into Kubuki-like movements with much of the practical aspects lost; something being studied for historical reasons if for nothing else. We've also all heard the stories of the ukes flopping like fish at the touch of a magical finger. Either of these extremes may serve to classify them as a subculture whose true nature is not fully understood by those not in that subculture. But does that make them Superior (hence, elite)? I don't think so. I know they consider themselves to be "closer to the source" and "less diluted" than the more contemporary, popular, or Gendai arts. And maybe they are. But to me, a measure of superiority would be directly linked to a measure of the combat-effectiveness it is promoting, in whatever arena that may be (boxing in the ring, jujutsu on the street, judo in the Olympics). To that end, I don't believe that any one art or even one category of arts can be singled out as being "superior" to all others; just different within their scope.

    ------------------
    Aaron L. Seay

    [This message has been edited by Aaron L. Seay (edited 06-13-2000).]

  4. #64
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    This is absurd. If we accept that:

    A) koryu are Japanese martial systems established prior to the beginning of the Meiji restoration (the most common working definition, it seems),

    and

    B) These systems have recognized and identifiable lineages and methods of transmission that can be documented,

    then true practitioners of these arts can be easily identified. All true koryu practitoners I know never hesitate to give their credentials to anyone who might RESPECTFULLY ask for them.

    People are constantly making the mistake that koryu=ass kicking ability and that the more ass one can kick the more koryu one is. Mr. Seay's post is just the latest example of this ignorance. One has nothing to do with the other. Koryu may or may not have any practical martial application to the present day. Indeed, in their physical manifestations and the weapons they use, koryu are obviously archaic. If one wants to learn how to kill someone on the street, learn assasination or night warfare techniques, or beat up someone in a bar, one would be better served joining an elite commando unit or hanging out with bikers, not learning how to use a sword.
    However, if one wants to do one's best to try to understand, as well as is possible nowadays, the culture and mindset of the bushi by practicing the arts they created, in the way the inheritors of the tradition have determined that they must be practiced, one must practice koryu, regardless of what practical value it might or might not appear to have at first glance.

    I simply do not understand why people like Mr. Seay, who seems to have no understanding of Japan or koryu at all, are constantly belittling something of which they obviously have no first-hand knowledge. Before one laughs up their sleeves at what appear at first glance to be ridiculous postures and movements it is incumbent on one to research why these things are done as opposed to saying "That looks really stupid. They obviously don't know what they're doing." How in the Sam Hill do you know? Have you talked to anyone in the ryu about why they do things that way?

    As far as going to Japan is concerned, one does not have to go to Japan to learn how to kick ass, obviously. You can learn that by hanging out at a local bar. To learn koryu however, one must either go to Japan or train with someone who has. And one has to have a little respect for what one ostensibly wants to practice.

    Earl Hartman

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    It is strange to hear people who have not trained koryu in Japan state that they don't think it is necessary! What is this opinion based off of? What you've read, heard and assumed from your own experiences?

    I don't study koryu formally, so I'm not any help in this regard. But I would tend to give those that have been there and make these claims the benefit of the doubt, personally. Many non-Japanese Koryu Budoka I've talked to have been very sincere in expressing their experiences to me.

    FWIW, I've also picked up what felt like snobbish overtones (which could be mistaken for strong opinions) from some things I've read over the years regarding koryu, but I've never heard any of them critisize (inaccurately) modern arts and I've *never* picked it up from Japanese koryu Budoka - only non-Japanese.

    Anyway, I've been through this kind of thing with people that argue that they don't feel that tameshigiri is necessary for swordsmanship when they themselves have little to no experience in it. How can they *know* what there is to gain from the experience?

    My point is, I'd like to hear from someone who has lived in Japan for a few years studying koryu who feels that it was not necessary to learn and understand the tradition. So far, everyone who has stated this has not been through this themselves, and I suspect that there is a reason why nobody with this kind of experience is popping on the list supporting an opposing view to training koryu in Japan.

    There is nothing wrong with not having an opinion, for those of us that don't have direct experience in something.

    Regards,

    ------------------
    Nathan Scott
    Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo
    Tsuki Kage dojo
    Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum

  6. #66
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    Nathan, Earl, guys, gals

    I really hate to get into this one because it 's so easy to misunderstand peoples positions here. I am convinced that all of you actually agree on most points but it is in the fine interpretation of details that you don't see eye to eye. However,

    Nathan, you stated:

    "I'd like to hear from someone who has lived in Japan for a few years studying koryu who feels that it was not necessary to learn and understand the tradition. So far, everyone who has stated this has not been through this themselves, and I suspect that there is a reason why nobody with this kind of experience is popping on the list supporting an opposing view to training koryu in Japan."

    How about this from Takamura Yukiyoshi's interview in Aikido Journal #117

    "Another common misconception is that one must go to Japan to get “real” Japanese martial arts training! I find this a very strange idea. What does the dirt under the floor have to do with the quality of training in a martial arts dojo these days? Some individuals who spend time training in Japan reinforce this idea with fanciful magazine articles and story books on mysterious secrets to be found there. Others make interesting claims that only by immersing oneself in the culture that bore the art originally can one truly understand its essence or spirit. These individuals are welcome to their opinions, but I must disagree with them. I was born in Japan, raised in the pre-World War II culture of Japan, in a family linked for generations to many martial arts. I have since lived many years in Europe, America and back in Japan. I believe some of these Japanophiles are honest and well-meaning martial arts practitioners drawn to the romantic image they have of Japan and its martial traditions. But others I think are Nippon snobs. They believe by making the admittedly great sacrifice of moving to Japan and surviving the difficulties associated with training there, that they are superior students who have received superior training compared to their friends who stay and train in budo or bujutsu outside Japan. If their training is superior, it is the sensei who is superior, not the dirt under the dojo floor. Many superior sensei exist outside Japan today and many inferior sensei exist inside Japan as well.

    Training in Japan does not make up for a bad teacher. Train with a superior teacher abroad. Why go to Japan to train with an inferior teacher? Also, to imagine that the post-World War II modern Japan of today bears any significant cultural resemblence to that of feudal era Japan requires one to ignore some most obvious facts. This is especially true if you are training in a traditional bujutsu or koryu. Using the rationale of cultural relevance just makes no sense to me. I have seen incredible changes in the culture of Japan in my lifetime. Feudal Japan of old died long ago. The culture of the classical martial traditions was tied so directly to the feudal era that the end of this era also brought the end of the culture that bore the classical arts. That is just a fact of history. " - Yukiyoshi Takamura

    I interpreted that as one of the points Mr Seay was trying to make:

    And Earl stated:

    "People are constantly making the mistake that koryu=ass kicking ability and that the more ass one can kick the more koryu one is. Mr. Seay's post is just the latest example of this ignorance. One has nothing to do with the other. Koryu may or may not have any practical martial application to the present day. Indeed, in their physical manifestations and the weapons they use, koryu are obviously archaic. If one wants to learn how to kill someone on the street, learn assasination or night warfare techniques, or beat up someone in a bar, one would be better served joining an elite commando unit or hanging out with bikers, not learning how to use a sword.
    However, if one wants to do one's best to try to understand, as well as is possible nowadays, the culture and mindset of the bushi by practicing the arts they created, in the way the inheritors of the tradition have determined that they must be practiced, one must practice koryu, regardless of what practical value it might or might not appear to have at first glance."

    Earl, My problem with this statement is that you are putting words into Mr Seay's mouth. He did not say that koryu had to be practical in modern application. How about interpreting his words as meaning "still practical in ancient application?"

    Read his words again:

    "Others have previously posted that much of Koryu has degenerated into Kubuki-like movements with much of the practical aspects lost; something being studied for historical reasons if for nothing else."

    This refers to something actually being lost, not just being archaic. Thats different. Support for this position comes again from the interview with Takamura Sensei in his interview with Stan Pranin in Aikido Journal.

    Takamura Sensei stated:

    "Many classical martial traditions in Japan are now just pretty dancing. It is so sad."

    and:

    They cling only to antiquated forms and, in this process, often neglect the concepts which form a particular tradition’s core. Some people wish to preserve the arts exactly as they were in olden times. This is commendable, but usually folly. With very fews exceptions, no existing classical school reflects even a fraction of the art’s technical heritage as practiced in times past."

    Remember that these words are from a well respected Japanese sensei who began study of several koryu in Japan before WW2.

    Earl, You also stated:

    "I simply do not understand why people like Mr. Seay, who seems to have no understanding of Japan or koryu at all, are constantly belittling something of which they obviously have no first-hand knowledge."


    BTW. Aaron Seay is a longtime student of Takamura Sensei and therfore does know something of which he speaks, although I dont believe he has ever proclaimed himself an expert.

    Toby Threadgill / U.S. Kaicho
    Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai


  7. #67
    Aaron L. Seay Guest

    Red face

    Margaret:

    I have to apologize for my poor writing skills...it's true that the people I mentioned by name (Lowry, Skoss) do write of their experiences and beliefs that Koryu is special; but I have NOT detected any attitude of snobbery or anything like that from any of them; on the contrary, I have nothing but respect for their works and their writings. I was only trying to make the point that what they do serves to further the idea of Koryu being an elite class of M.A. I think this all started with the question of, where do people get this idea? And I think this is one of the answers.

    Now, the people I was referring to who WERE acting snobby are the ones we all had the big discussions with on the old AJJ BB, and I won't mention their names, but it was a lot of "If it ain't our aiki, it ain't real aiki" kind of stuff. That's what served to hack a lot of people off.

    Also, I liked your counter to the "Shakespear" argument. Interesting point.

    One last thing: Earl wrote

    "People are constantly making the mistake that koryu=ass kicking ability and that the more ass one can kick the more koryu one is. Mr. Seay's post is just the latest example of this ignorance. One has nothing to do with the other. "

    I don't see where I made that mistake. What I said was:

    "a measure of superiority would be directly linked to a measure of the combat-effectiveness it is promoting, in whatever arena that may be (boxing in the ring, jujutsu on the street, judo in the Olympics)"

    So, for Koryu the arena would be an Ancient Japanese Battlefield, right? I wouldn't ask that a Koryu be "kick-ass" in a street fight, because that's not what it's promoting, is it? Try not to be offended, earl, I'm not "putting down" koryu; I just don't think that it's any more special than any other martial art form (McDojo's notwithstanding, of course)



    ------------------
    Aaron L. Seay

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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron L. Seay:

    There are many established and well respected writers (Dave Lowry, Diane Skoss, etc) who study Koryu, and actively promote the idea that what they do is special somehow, or superior to that which is not Koryu.

    [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I strongly disagree with your statement. These koryu practitioners whom you mention do indeed promote the idea that the Koryu arts are special.

    But it is illogical for anyone to conclude that they would therefore denigrate the modern arts to indulge in some superficial sense of superiority and self-satisfaction.

    This is grossly UNFAIR, and highly inaccurate.

    In fact, if you have read Mr. Lowry's articles about karate in Black Belt magazine, you might notice that he treats a very modern art with care and good thinking. Nothing in the works of these writers suggests to me that they run around putting anyone else down. They have instead demonstrated a great deal of restraint and circumspection in responding, or rather refraining from responding, to the attacks occurring right here on this board.

    Also, it is impossible for any discussion to go forward without an agreed standard as to what Koryu is and what it is not. That discussion cannot take place if everyone has already concluded that they will not listen to certain people they consider "snobs", yet who are also agreed to be highly knowledgable. Who then has their minds closed to new imput?

    Finally, I think it is not the superiority complex of the koryu practitioners that is at issue but the inferiority complex of certain other practitioners.

    -Margaret Lo-

    [This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-14-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-14-2000).]

  9. #69
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    Moreover:

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron L. Seay:
    "You can't study Koryu unless you come to Japan". That's like saying you can't study Shakespeare unless you go to England. Sorry, I don't buy it.....


    [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The Shakespeare analogy is interesting. One can say that one need not go to England to study Shakespeare, but most can agree that one does need to learn English.

    If I may presume, I think koryu practitioners might take the position that the language of their art is now taught only by certain teachers in Japan and a tiny minority of their students outside of Japan.

    So those who have not learned that "language" are not practicing a koryu art, though the things that these other practitioners do may have intrinsic value. Contrast Arthur Miller with the bard.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
    I don't believe that any one art or even one category of arts can be singled out as being "superior" to all others; just different within their scope.
    [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I think that is already the position of certain koryu practitioners I respect.

    Please recall that an art that is "different" may also be described as "special" and people should not attach connotations that its practitioners are snobs.

    -M-

    [This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-14-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-14-2000).]

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    Aaron - thank you for your clarification. I do agree that hearty arguments are welcome or else why post?

    -M-

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    Hey Toby (and all you other lads and lassies),

    Just one comment on your teacher's position. I agree with parts of it--for one thing, I certainly wouldn't consider training in Japan with a "lesser" sort of teacher. However, for many, if not most, koryu, the truly superior (i.e. skilled and knowledgeable, and able to transmit) teachers are in Japan.

    Okay, so it is two comments. Your teacher is Japanese. There are things that he knows, lives, and breathes that are different from what you and I know/have been brought up to--not better, just different, and more importantly, Takamura Sensei's upbringing is more relevant to the study of koryu. Japanese culture has indeed changed significantly from the days of the bushi, but the culture that exists today still has many features in it that are tied to the feudal era, and it is much more similar to the culture that spawned the koryu than the Western one I grew up in! The koryu are Japanese social entities--you simply can't do them, in my opinion, without having a clue as to how Japanese society works. And I truly believe that the way to do that is to spend some time in it (I mean would you read a book to learn a martial art? No, you go to the dojo and train).

    I, like Nathan, would love to hear from anyone who has spent several years training in Japan in a koryu--who is NOT Japanese, nay, let's be more precise, a Westerner--and does not believe that training in Japan is a necessity at some stage.

    Also, for the record, I do believe that the koryu are excellent methods of training. For me, they are the bees knees. But I also train in several modern arts, which I adore, and ride dressage (okay, so that's a bit of an exaggeration--I'm learning to ride with the aim of eventually learning dressage). No one of these arts are superior--you get what you put into them, as long as you've sought and found the right teacher--wherever he or she may be.



    ------------------
    Diane Skoss
    Koryu.com

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    I apologize if I flew off the handle, but the attitude that I thought I detected behind Mr. Seay's comments touched a raw nerve, as his comments seemed to be directed at some people I know personally.

    I first started studying kendo more than 30 years ago. Since then, I spent 11 years living in Japan studying various arts, some gendai (kendo and kyudo) and some koryu (Nagao Ryu Taijutsu and MJER Iai Heiho). Over the years, I have gravitated more towards koryu and have recently (within the last 5 years) taken up SMR jo and even more recently (within the last year) started studying Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Hyoho. I have also recently begun training in tradtitional kyudo of the Heki To Ryu. I claim no great skill in any of the arts I practice. I just give this as background information.

    However, I can state without reservation and based on personal experience that the level of the MA that I experienced in Japan is far higher than what I have experienced here in the US, especially in kendo and kyudo. I can also say, and in this I agree with Diane wholeheartedly, that an understanding of Japanese culture has been vital to my understanding of martial arts. If that makes me the kind on Japanophile snob that Takemura sensei describes, then I must aopolgize in advance.

    Of course, what Takemura Sensei says about superior vs. inferior teachers, the changes in Japanese culture, etc., is certainly true. Only a fool would say that a teacher must be Japanese to be any good and that there is no good bugei outside of Japan, and there are plenty of degenerate koryu to be found in Japan, I am sure. Even I have seen incredible changes in Japan over the years which undoubtedly pale in comparison with what Takemura Sensei has seen. (And if you think that I think Japan has changed, you should hear what my wife has to say about it every time she goes back home to visit: "#@!!& kids these days, the whole country is going to hell in a handbasket...").

    It is of course entirely possible that one may be lucky enough to find a highly qualified teacher of traditional Japanese bugei outside of Japan. I wish nothing but success to those who have been lucky enough to do so. Also, not all of the charlatans and frauds in this country are Americans. There are plenty of Japanese frauds here too.
    However, the law of averages would dictate that the majority of skilled traditional teachers are still to be found in Japan, the country where these arts originated.

    For instance, the highest ranked kyudo practitoner in this country is a Renshi 6th dan. He is a highly skilled practitoner and a personal friend of mine, and he probably knows more about traditional kyudo than anyone in the US. I have nothing but respect for him and all he has done to help introduce traditional kyudo to the West. However, in Japan, he is only a Renshi 6th dan, and I mean no disprespect by this at all. Without putting too fine a point on it, Japan is lousy with Renshi 6th dans, as rare as they may be here. For a central Renshi test in Japan, more than 300 candidates regularly show up for a single test. We are lucky if there is even 1/3 of that number of people training in kyudo, at any level, in the entire continental US.

    The same thing is true in kendo. I trained with the riot squad cops in Japan for a year and a half (when I was a lot younger and a lot stupider). I was so far out of my league it was beyond pathetic. The level of skill, the pool of bodies available, the level of teaching, and the fanatic dedication to training that I experienced was beyond anything I had imagined. Unless a US squad were filled with Japanese ringers, there is no way any team of homegrown US kendokas could beat them. This is proven time and time again in the international competitions. The only question is who is going to come in second.

    At the same time, it is true that there are a few superior teachers outside of Japan, regardless of nationality. The question is, who are they and where are they found? Frankly, since this is koryu, and there is no organization in the US that corresponds to the various umbrella organizations for koryu in Japan, there is no way of knowing, except by personal experience and word of mouth, who these teachers might be. Also, e-budo itself makes clear that there are widely differeing opinions on what, precisely, a "qualified koryu school/teacher" might be.

    Regarding "Kabuki Koryu", again, I must ask, how does one know what this might be? The japanese are no different from anyone else; they love to sit down over a few beers and say: "Oh yeah, Nani-nani Sensei of Nantoka Ryu really sucks. I knew his father, and he was strong, but the ryu isn't worth a plugged nickel nowadays. Now, Nantoka Nani Nani Ryu, on the other hand..." If you've never seen or studied the ryu in question, and you respect and admire your sensei (which you must if you have any sense at all) you're going to nod and say "Hmm, I guess we don't have to waste our time with that nonsense, do we?" We all do this. That's where snobbery starts.

    Sorry for the rambling incoherence. There's bound to be a point in there somewhere.

    Earl

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    Earl, I understand your points to be:

    1) do not disparage people you have never met; and

    2) when learning an art native to another country it helps to understand that country by going there.


    -M-

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    Hi Diane,

    Thanks for joining in and offering your keen observations. I think we are basically on the same page here albeit I may need a little wiggle room .

    There is a misunderstanding to do with a quote attributed to you that I think needs clarification. The quote was:

    "You can't study Koryu unless you come to Japan".

    This can be interpreted several ways. I think most people that find a problem with this statement take it to mean "You can study koryu ONLY while in Japan." as opposed to "During your study of koryu at sometime you must train in Japan"

    This is a big difference!

    I know for a fact that Takamura Sensei disagreed with my first interpretation of your quote because he stated as much quite plainly on several occasions. He acknowledged that some training in Japan would be beneficial in helping a student grasp certain cultural aspect's which would maintain the "Japaneseness" of what they were doing. Maintaining certain Japanese cultural aspects in koryu study were very important to him because they are after all "Nihon Koryu". But he seems to have drawn a line at a different place than many others in reference to this debate. He felt that to say it was mandatory for someone to actually live in Japan for an extended period so they could grasp the 'essence" of koryu, was simply putting too much focus on changed and changing cultural details unassociated with actual mastery of the art. In his perception the "cultural features" left over from the feudal era that you mentioned, had changed so much in his lifetime that he felt their relevence must have been marginalized and changing before even he was a student.

    The argument could be made that by training in Japan one is attempting to prevent further maginalization. I tried this argument on him once and Takamura Sensei didn't buy it at all. His position was that the koryu culture was irrepairably marginalized at the end of the feulad era, period, end of story. He felt that westerners like myself tended to romanticize koryu and see it as a snapshot in history that accurately reflected the past thru great lengths of time. He used to laugh with me over this considering it amazing that I was capable of such simplemindedness. (I thanked him for the compliment.)

    I will quote him again although here he specifically talks about the technical aspects of koryu changing over time.

    He stated:

    "Remember that the ryu as they existed in the Warring States era were constantly changing and adjusting to the realities they faced on the battlefield. Only when this period ended did the innovation slow. Many of the classical schools as practised today are, at their best, reflections of the way that tradition operated in one short period of its existence. They are not an accurate reflection of its technical existence over its whole history. "

    Maybe this gives some of you a better understanding of where he stood on this and why. His overriding passion was seeing the martial traditions of his ancestors survive. His bottom line was that they were truly "martial arts" and that the secrets they held would not survive if only in archaic forms. This does not mean he felt the forms were useless but that the secrets in them must be applied at some point in a more practical manner to remain truly alive and relevent.

    When I asked Takamura Sensei for permission to open a dojo, permission was granted but with many qualifiers. The dojo could not be in a commercial location but had to be located close to my residence. It must include a kamidana and tatami. It had to be traditional in appearance and demonstrate the restrained elegence associated with a place of experiencing shugyo. (Takamura Sensei was often an unpredictable stickler about certain aspects of the ryu, as was his perogative.) He perhaps drew the line of what constituted koryu for him differently than some but personally I see the wisdom of his choice, even if it differs from those admired friends whose qualifications include long koryu training time in Japan. I respect you guys and your sacrafice in keeping koryu alive , even if we disagree on certain shades within the circle of opinions.

    Toby Threadgill
    Soryushin Dojo / Dallas

    [This message has been edited by Toby Threadgill (edited 06-14-2000).]

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    Margaret:

    Yeah, that's pretty much it. Trust you to sift out the main points.

    Toby's letter brings up what I think the main point of debate in all of this, which is:

    "Is the essence of the bugei (whether koryu or gendai) somehow tied up with the Japaneseness of the bugei, or can it be seprated from its cultural trappings?"

    A related question would be "Can the essence of the bugei be separated from its physical expression in a particular ryu?"

    These are fascinating and fundamental questions, and could (and probably will be) discussed incessantly. How one feels about them is going to determine where on the spectrum one falls when it comes to the necessity, or lack thereof, of living in Japan or knowing anything about the country and its culture, and on the degree of "historical accuracy" that is required for something to be "authentic".

    Takamura Sensei obviously has his own view of these questions and has obviously given it a lot of thought. The bugei have obviously changed greatly, of course. Nothing stays as it once was. Each ryu within the tradition, in the person of its headmaster, will have its own take on this. Each bugeisha will make his or her own determination over what he or she considers important, based on the reasons that he/she has for studying them to begin with. These motivations will also change over time. Questioning the "validity" of a person's motivations is worse than pointless, it is divisive. However, discussing the validity of the historical provenenace of a particular ryu is a legitimate avenue of historical inquiry.

    Earl

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