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Thread: Koryu Snobs Revisited

  1. #76
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    Thanks, Toby, for clarifying something that indeed many people have misunderstood about my position, re: koryu and training in Japan. I never wrote: "You can't study koryu unless you come to Japan" (at least I'm fairly sure I didn't ). In fact, what I have written (I'm not going to go quote it, but it's in that article "You want koryu? Come to Japan"), is that if you want to train in a koryu outside of Japan you should choose to train with a teacher who has spent significant time in Japan (such a person, could of course, be Japanese).

    I also believe it is absolutely necessary for anyone responsible for transmission of a koryu (and that means the entire curriculum; i.e. menkyo kaiden level or equivalent) to have spent time in Japan. I don't think that everyone who trains in koryu (or any Japanese budo for that matter) needs to go to Japan, though I sincerely believe that it helps (see Margaret's cogent statement just above). I do think that anyone being considered for the highest level of license (and there are only a handful of ryuha in which there is someone outside of Japan who can even do this considering) should spend time in Japan. I also believe that if your single-minded most cherished priority is to train in a koryu, then going to Japan is by far your best bet.

    Now perhaps this is where the snobbish reputation comes from. It isn't a foregone conclusion that everyone who starts out on the path will end up with a license of complete transmission (hell, it isn't a foregone conclusion that everyone who wants to train in a koryu will even find a qualified instructor--there aren't that many of them around, in Japan or out). In fact, only a very very small percentage of trainees achieve the highest level. In some schools there is only one per generation. In other schools, there may be as many as a dozen at a time in a single line (it gets complicated trying to explain all the permutations--the koryu don't take easily to generalization). In many ryuha there are a fair number of the lowest level licensees running around; fewer of the next level up, and so on. The highest levels are indeed elusive (thanks, Doug, for that useful perspective!); only an elite few ever achieve it (I'm not one of them!). But that doesn't mean we can't strive for it, and if such a level of understanding of a koryu art is your goal, I still most strongly recommend living in Japan.

    A quick question (I know I should know this but...), how many years did Takamura Sensei live in the West? Sometimes my experience has been that the Japanese (and I'm not saying this is the case with him, mind you) aren't fully aware of just how different our culture is from theirs, until they themselves have spent significant time here. They simply don't know how much we don't know about basics of Japanese etiquette and social/cultural behavior. Is it possible that he didn't have experience with the depths of our general cluelessness (re: how to exist in Japan) here in the West--I mean you aren't a very good example for him, being a quick study, thoughtful, observant (I'm being serious here, folks--Toby and I have met), meticulous with the cultural details...?

    Again, the reason I think you must study in Japan is because the koryu today are a Japanese social group--they are more than a collection of teachings more or less based on battlefield techniques of the feudal-era bushi. To exist as a member of a koryu today, you've got to know what being a member of a ryu means, how to behave properly in various (Japanese) situations; it's all much more than technique, or even basic etiquette. Sure, the details have changed over time, but the current form of the koryu, in my opinion, must be maintained in this social structure--it is what has been transmitted--or it is not koryu (see Dave Lowry's introduction to Sword & Spirit for a far more elegant explanation of this point). I don't believe you can get the hang of this structure (let alone attempt to replicate it outside of Japan), without experience in it. I guess I am a snob, after all



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    Diane Skoss
    Koryu.com

  2. #77
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    Toby-san,

    Although I had intended to refer to non-Japanese who have gone to Japan to study, your article clip offers some worthwhile points to consider. I had forgotten about that part of Takamura Sensei's article, which by the way I (like everyone else) really liked and largely agreed with/related to.

    However, I am in agreement with Earl-san's position that we are talking about something more than the physical location of the dojo (dirt under our feet).

    Personally, I think that advanced/senior instructors of traditional/classical arts should generally spend at least a little time in Japan specifically to understand the Japanese mind and cultural elements that are so much different (in many cases opposite) to the western mind and way of thinking. That doesn't mean that a western instructor has to copy the eastern ways of thinking and teaching necessarily, but without deeply understanding these subtleties there are invariably little matters of interpretation or "educated guesses" that are lost as a result. Yes Japanese are different now than they were then in alot of ways, but there is alot of general and specific things (intangible, but important) that seem to be the same that are relevant.

    On the other hand, I think it's *possible* to learn these things outside of Japan, assuming that you have a seasoned instructor who understands these things and can accurately transmit/interpret relevant information to their students, but as has been pointed out, these instructors (right now) are *really* far and few between.

    As an example in support of the non-Japan viewpoint, I've had the rather unique experience to study for some time under Obata Toshishiro Sensei, who was born in Japan but has lived in LA for the last 20 years. He is not only a native Japanese, but has a mindset and personallity straight out of feudal times (he rarely even wears western clothes!) Obata Soke began serious Budo training at 18 years old, and has pursued studying and teaching professionally for close to 35 years now.

    Shinkendo is a new art, of which he founded after he moved to America, so our Honbu dojo happens to be here in Los Angeles, not in Japan. Since he is a full time teacher, I've been able to interact with him at least 4-7 days a week since I first joined, and spent many a weekend staying (living) at their house during the writing of his most current book.

    So although we're not talking about koryu in this case, here is a unique situation in which Japan came to us, in a big way, for me in the form of an almost uchi-deshi experience.

    Takamura Yukiyoshi Sensei moved to America, and so did Yoshida Soke (Yanagi ryu/Don Angier) bringing their traditions with them.

    These are all rare cases, so in most respects it will be necessary to at least make trips to Japan to train under the headmaster's of most koryu.

    Also, on one last point regarding this, I've heard proponents of Koryu describe the traditions as "living entities", that need to be carefully and properly cultivated. I believe that it is possible to create that kind of dynamic in a dojo outside of Japan, but you'd need to know what it felt like first to be a part of that before knowing where to focus your energies.

    FWIW,


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    Nathan Scott
    Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo
    Tsuki Kage dojo
    Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum

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    Howdy, (just to add some Texan flavor)

    This discussion has really clarified some things. What great opinions and observations.
    I hope some of the readers lurking about out there have a better handle on the elite vs snob controversary. I think elite is winning the day although I'm sure some ego induced snobbishness will always exist in a few koryu practitioners. Heck I've met the most intolerable snobs in gendai martial arts so this phenomonon is certainly not limited to koryu circles.

    I've got a funny story that Margaret made me think of in her last post while making the observation that the average Japanese of today knows nothing of koryu culture.

    In Japan once, a friends associate named Nobiyuki who lived in Mito asked me the question of why I practiced Japanese budo. He was especially perplexed as to why I had any interest in something so archaic as Japanese swords. I was speechless. I was so caught off guard by the question that I just stood there staring at him. I finally responded with some vapid rambling about discipline, honor, preserving something worth saving, yuk yuk yuk. Well, this painful retort resulted in a most un-Japanese response. He said "I think thats very odd, Don't you?" How was I suppose to respond to that? He elaborated that he just could not fathom why certain foreigners would put their whole lives on hold, quitting good jobs, living in near poverty to train in so archaic a pursuit as budo. He adroitly posed this next question. "Mr Threadgill, if I quit my job and moved to Texas without knowing any english so I could learn to be a cowboy and rope little dogies wouldn't you find it a bit strange?

    Little Dogies? I laughed my ass off and responded that I probably would. Nobiyuki just smiled in victory.

    Later that evening he proudly displayed his collection of favorite videotaped movies. All John Wayne movies including "The sands of Iwo Jima and "The Fighting Seabee"s. The evening was a bizarre experience I will never forget.


    Toby Threadgill

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    You know folks. It is not necessary to defend the necessity of going to Japan. It is necessary to convince me why that trip is unnecessary.

    At Princeton University, or any university able to grant doctorates, every non-native scholar who studies Japanese art history or Chinese art history spends significant amounts of time in those countries. Many times, the objects they study are in London or New York and written work is available to them overseas. Theoretically they can just stay home, and they mostly do just that.

    But every single western born and raised scholar spends at least a year in Japan or China - even though the art work they study is often 300 to 1000 years old, and the societies which produced these works are long dead and buried.

    Why do they do that? I think because even the modern culture of Japan or China, despite the changes that have occurred in recent years, still bear a great deal closer resemblance to those older cultures than the ancient/honorable culture of NEW JERSEY, USA.

    So I do not see the need to support the position that a trip to Japan is necessary. It is quite obvious that the trip is very important. It is important to note, however, that the trip does not necessarily help one's understanding of koryu because that is dependant on the ability of the student who is visiting.

    As to Takamura Sensei's point of view:

    "The argument could be made that by training in Japan one is attempting to prevent further maginalization. I tried this argument on
    him once and Takamura Sensei didn't buy it at all. His position was that the koryu culture was irrepairably marginalized at the end of the feulad era, period, end of story. He felt that westerners like myself tended to romanticize koryu and see it as a snapshot in history that accurately reflected the past thru great lengths of time."

    I think the essence of his argument seems to be that westerners go to Japan to satisfy their own romantic notions rather than doing hard technical work at home. I can agree with his assessment except that it is less based on the idea that going to Japan will not help you understand koryu, than on the idea that for some westerners, going to Japan won't help because they still won't understand Japanese culture, and that this is especially the case since few Japanese understand koryu culture.

    Therefore, Mr. Takamura's argument does not persuade me that going to Japan is not helpful, only that it is no magic pill.

    -M-

    [This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-15-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-15-2000).]

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    Mr Popie:

    Your post is an excellent example of a lot of the things we have been trying to discuss. I do not know anything about you, in what arts you have trained, how long you have been training, or anything else.

    However, your apparent shock at the fact that the champion of a kendo tournament did not whoop, holler, pound his chest like King Kong, taunt the man he had defeated, and otherwise make a disgusting spectacle of himself after winning a match (which is clearly what you expected) and the fact that you mistook his calmness, reserve, and dignity for shame, speaks volumes. I know that you will excoriate me for being one of thse horrible koryu snobs, but this one statement alone makes it painfully obvious that you do not know anything about budo (and this is the crux of the matter) AS IT IS PRACTICED IN JAPAN.

    In the US, we expect the victor in any contest to exult in his victory, claim exclusive credit for it, and take it as manifest proof of his obvious superiority to the poor schmuck that he just humiliated. This is how we believe that Real Men are supposed to act, and all of the professional athletes in this country practice their in-your-face victory dance almost as much as they work on their sporting skills.

    In Japan, anyone who acts that way is despised as an arrogant buffoon, and will promptly have the stuffing beaten out of him. There is always someone stronger, and any fool who thinks he is good enough to look down his nose at his training mates is heading for a fall. Indeed, much of budo training in Japan is geared toward beating that kind of arrogance out of people, not cultivating it. This is one of the most fundamental differences between Japan and the US, and explaining why this is important is beyond the scope of this bulletin board.

    Also, a person who has spent significant time in Japan learning a traditional art has every right to expect any potential student of his/hers to defer to that experience and not come swaggering in expecting to be treated as an equal. In Japan, the person with experience is automatically the senpai, the senior. His/her experience must be respected. If a senior takes an arrogant tone, he is failing in his role as someone who must show the proper way to his juniors. However, the junior must act as befits a junior, and this means, most importantly, recognizing the plain fact of his own ignorance and accepting that the other person knows more than he does and is, consequently, worthy of certain degree of respect and deference.

    It is precisely this acceptance of this heirarchy of skill and experience, and one's own place within it (which changes as one gains skill and experience of one's own) that is one of the most important traits a student of budo must have, and it is precisely this one thing that most Americans simply cannot bring themselves to do. We are trained to believe that we are all equal and that no one's experience is more valuable than another's, and that "lowering" yourself to anyone, no matter who he or she may be, is to humiliate yourself and lose face. Well, too bad. Budo doesn't work that way. In Japan, this arrogance, which we Americans mistake for pride, is the mark of a person whio has no business wasting other people's valuable practice time. Fortunately, life in the dojo for these people is usually made so miserable that they usually leave, undoubtedly cursing the damn koryu snobs as they walk out, never to return.

    Earl

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    Mr. Popie:

    I find your last post completely incoherent, and I have no idea what it is that you are trying to say.

    The only thing that makes any sense is your statement that you know nothing about budo. If this is really true, and you are not being facetious or coy, then I must say that you take the chutzpah prize of all times.

    This is a bulletin board for discussions about budo by people who practice and care about budo. If you do not practice budo and if you don't know anything about it, as you yourself admit, what in the Sam Hill are you doing here?

    A snob is a person who presumes to discuss something about which he knows nothing, as you have apparently done. I do not know what your profession is, but let us assume for a moment that you are a physicist. I know nothing about physics and I freely admit it. If I were to attend a lecture you gave, would you not think it more than a little odd if I started accusing you of being a snob because you dared to reveal your knowledge and presumed to thereby put yourself above me? A person with any sense would defer to your obvious knowledge and, if he cared anything about physics, attempt to learn something from you.

    If your preceding post was not a joke, and you really don't know anything about budo, then you should either start training or post to some other bulletin board where your comments would add to, rather than detract from, the conversation.


    That Execrable Koryu Snob (Damn His Impudent Eyes),
    Earl

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    As I think I'm one of the guilty "koryu snobs" for my previous posts on the oft mentioned "pre-crash AJJ forum", I've tried to refrain from jumping into this discussion until now.

    But I just have to say that the last several posts by Earl here were brilliantly well stated. As are Diane's, I find myself agreeing with them just about completely.

    If I can add my own two cents: I don't think the term "elite" connotates snobbery in my mind at all. And while I think "elusive" accurately describes the koryu arts, I don't think it describes koryu practitioners as well as "elite" does. If that makes me a snob in anyone's mind, so be it.

    Brently Keen

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    Mr. Popie,

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I see the point of your argument. Now I shall ask if you feel those who return from Japan (1 week to 10 Years having contact with a Koryu) have a right to be elite/snobby. Also if it is reasonable for those who have never had the chance to go to Japan to interpret these people as elite or snobs?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Elite, possibly (depends on length of study); no.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Those who go endure like it has been stated and from that they have a new sense of pride for their accomplishments and knowledge. When the get back to their country of origin they have a conversation of someone ignorant of Japan and Koryu and whose knowledge base comes from scholars and others who have been to Japan-all clearly not first hand knowledge.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Secondary sources are important in research, but do not bear the same import as do primary sources. Second-hand knowledge can be almost as important as a primary source, provided it eminates (accurately) from one who has experienced the situation first-hand. However, you must be cognizant that you will unconsciously filter the information imparted to you. It's no one's fault, really; just a matter of "seeing the elephant" or going on "Hadj." Just as the person with direct experience filters information through one set of cultural lenses -- you,the secondary recipient, further filter that same information through an additional set of cultural lenses (sunglasses sometimes). Therefore, you may not be seeing what he saw. Granted, you now possess new information previously absent -- and it is much better than not having any information at all; however, concepts, techniques, explanations, etc., are clearer when you -- yourself -- have direct, first-hand experience.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>... What might the perspective of each other as a result their intercourse be on Koryu? Would the knowledge one (went to Japan and learned Koryu to some degree) look down upon the ignorant one? If so, is this not an example of Koryu snobbery? Well, that is, if you consider the person who went to Japan more then a drop in the bucket of experience. That is 10 years in Japan studying a Koryu is a drop in the bucket right? Scholars spend lifetimes with just small parts of a culture. What more of a task is it for the Japanese martial artist?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This same argument is foisted time and again upon those with university and advanced degrees. Whether we like to admit it or not, people with academic qualifications *are* elite -- and, some *are* snobs; however, "elite" is not ipso facto "snob." Using the example of higher education, one can experience "reverse snobbery" every day -- "Johnny has a BA, MA, or PhD; therefore, he must think he's better than we. So we'll just laugh at the egghead and tell him that education is no substitute for "real" experience!" Or, "One does not need a university education to make it." Does this not happen in martial arts too?
    "You don't have to go to Japan to study koryu;" "koryu don't teach practical street combat;" "koryu are ineffective;" etc. Never mind the fact that the person who spends time in Japan learns more about the cultural trappings of koryu -- or even gendai budo. It is still a worthy education. Do we "look down on the ignorant one?" -- NO! Personally speaking, I enjoy teaching what I have learned. I don't look down on anybody. However, I do feel sorry for those who think they have nothing to learn. That does not make me a snob, does it? If someone does not want to learn from my small experience that is fine -- there are others who feel they can learn something.

    The "Budo Seikai" [martial arts world] is a different world. Just as university expands one's perspective, so does training in Japan expand one's understanding of budo-culture. It may not give you all the skills to "be a mechanic," but it does provide the ability to understand the theory of mechanics on a deeper level -- often in a shorter amount of time than it would take "on the job."

    University is no longer the "elitist" privlidge it once was -- not since the GI Bill opened college for the average American in the late 1940s. However, the "average Joe" who attends does become an "elite." Whether he then becomes a snob is a totally different issue.

    Perception (or mis perception) probably is also a factor. The martial artist who cannot go to Japan sees these "Japanophiles" discussing issues on a different level. They tend to gravitate towards each other. They use unfamiliar Japanese which is not the typical dojo-language. They speak of esoteric places with familiarity. They correct his pronunciation. It is not so much that the Japanophiles are "snobs" -- it is just that he will perceive them as "elitists, ergo snobs" because their level of education is significantly higher than his. Some who did not attend university feel uncomfortable in the presence university graduates. The grads tend to speak at a different --educated -- level which is unfamiliar and (perhaps) frightening to him.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Well, Earl I do find you a snob...more now after your post to me saying I know nothing of Budo. Your right I don't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The message I am picking up here is: Snobs (i.e., those who studied in Japan) do not want to "waste" time with those who have not journeyed to Japan. This is patently incorrect. Everybody I know -- including Earl -- who has spent time in Japan sees themselves as a curator of the art they studied. They, in turn, are eager to pass along their knowledge to anyone who desires to learn. This is the epitome of responsibility -- dissemination of correct knowledge. Why is that perceived as being "snobbish?"

    Regards,
    Guy

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    Guy H. Power
    http://www.trifox.com/aux/kenshinkan

    [This message has been edited by ghp (edited 06-16-2000).]

  9. #84
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    I guess this "Go to Japan-thing" is something requiering a lot of reading between the lines...

    Going to Japan in itself will not help very much in understanding Koryu. I bet the kids and youths growing up in todays Japan don't know a thing about the "Koryu-culture". What do they know of what WE call Japanese culture?

    The thing is that it IS possible to study Koryu (to a certain degree) without going to Japan. Just as it IS possible to study Koryu without ever recieving a Menkyo. It is also possible to live and study Koryu in Japan without ever understanding anything.

    On the otherhand, since the Koryu is very small...in Japan and especially outside Japan, one has to search to find. This is true even for those growing up in Japan, they too have to search to find qualified instruction, wich is not found on the corner.
    Such instruction demands hard studying and there are much more than just pure technique.

    I guess that it will become obvious to most students that if one wants to get a deeper understanding, the price will be higher and the places to find the deeper understanding (of the surrounding culture and such) will be rare.

    Rainforrests are getting rare too, and I feel I need to visit one before they are all gone...

    Regards,
    Ulf


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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Popie:
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Margaret Lo:

    Therefore, Mr. Takamura's argument does not persuade me that going to Japan is not helpful, only that it is no magic pill.


    I see the point of your argument. Now I shall ask if you feel those who return from Japan (1 week to 10 Years having contact with a Koryu) have a right to be elite/snobby. Also if it is reasonable for those who have never had the chance to go to Japan to interpret these people as elite or snobs?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No one who has ever posted on this thread has ever felt that training in Japan gives anyone any rights to be snobby. There is no justification for any one to perceive those who have trained in Japan to be snobs.

    I for one have never been to Japan and I train in a modern art. I have not the slightest sense that any of the koryu practitioners are condescending to me.

    Popie - You are trolling that much is obvious.

    -M-

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    Mr. Popie - as a matter of courtesy, please take a second to note the proper name spelling of our list-ka when posting - two
    in particular of which I listed below have many years in the arts and I noticed you habitually misspell them:

    Lowery is Lowry, and Powers is Power.






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    Nathan Scott
    Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo
    Tsuki Kage dojo
    Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum

  12. #87
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    I dislike getting into flame wars (this is my first one, as a matter of fact) but this is just too much. So now Margaret is a snob because she dares to have the effrontery, the sheer, unmitigated gall, to attend that effete bastion bastion of elitism, Princeton U? And poor Mr. Popie, feeling sorry for himself that he didn't have the money or the connections to make it, thereby implying that the only reason Margaret is there is because she's from some some rich high-society family? Did you ever stop to think that you might not have the brains to get into Princeton, Mr. Popie?

    Margaret has never once presumed to lecture anyone about anything just because she attends a certain school; indeed she has never mentioned it once, as far as I know. For Mr. Popie to insinuate this just shows what a small-minded, envious little man he is. For shame.

    So you don't take my opinion of you seriously. Fine. As you said, no skin off my nose. However, I think it is only reasonable for us to expect that you will, at least, take budo seriously when you presume to discuss it. Margaret's posts show her to be a serious and perceptive student of budo (and with a pretty good sense of humor and good taste in food, too, two things that are always important). Your posts, on the other hand, show you to be a smarmy, smirking poser who is only interested in stirring things up and sitting back and chuckilng at the trouble you cause. Since you don't know anything about budo, as you yourself freely admit, you should have the manners to show some respect to people who do, and who take it seriously, instead of impugning their integrity because you are jealous of them.

    That Damned Koryu Snob,
    Earl, Finding Himself Unable To Keep His Blasted Mouth Shut, Even When He Knows It Won't Solve Anything To Get Hot And Bothered

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    I also train in a "modern" art, and most of my life, I have been told that I must go to the Kodokan to get the best, but you know what? The Kodokan has long cease to be it when it comes to judo.

    I was invited to train at the kodokan at the age of sixteen in the middle sixties, but my family had not the money to pay my way. Should I go to learn and experience the culture even if the Kodokan has almost to be threatened (not literally) to answer email of snailmail just to get the list of fees for living and training there, as well as for two students who would like to go? It is attractive to be able to say "I studied at the Kodokan, but would one be better off in his studies? No, not for a second. Generally, ranks are paid for and one can be had by spending a few months there per every time one wants to go.

    I have played judo in a foreign country, one in which the dojo there are mainly backed financially by the government. I found outstanding judoka in this country which was not Japan.

    We dance around who we call names, but sometimes a snob is just a snob, no matter what one is learning or doing. Sometimes they are polite and sometimes the are very accusatory. So just where is he boundry? Modern combative art have taken a beating almost from inception, and most have persevered. I do think koryu will do the same, but as long as one holds up koryu to the stigma of not going to Japan, it will continue to be slammed, in a way. Japan is not scary because you can't speak the language, it is scary because of the way most Japanese are treated by their own ruling class. And that, I think, is a same, be it shado or judo, or any koryu.

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    Mark F. Feigenbaum

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    Dear Earl:
    Didn't you say you were planning to wean yourself off E-Budo?

    Thank you for your staunch defense. I am grateful to have met you and others such as yourself on this board. I have learned a great deal from your posts, not the least of which is a little more about Judaism. I'm most glad we understand each other about food. You have earned a standing invitation to a fabulous little Chinese restaurant near me (Ha! you're secret motive is revealed - clever man! )

    Popie - I do not attend Princeton, nor have I ever attended Princeton. I teach a shotokan karate class at Princeton University. I mentioned Princeton in a post about its requirements of its graduate students.

    My point on that post was simply:

    If traveling to Japan is required for students of Japanese art history at Princeton, surely a similar reasoning applies to the serious study of Japanese budo - especially when koryu is not readily available here.

    Your reaction to my mention of Princeton simply illustrates my point. Some practitioners have the koryu equivalent of Princeton degrees. Some of these people are snobs, but most are not snobs, just serious curators/scholars.

    To the insecure among us, those people with elite credentials are per se snobs despite the fact that they have done nothing to earn them that disparaging label.

    -M-




  15. #90
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    Margaret:

    I guess I went too far and blew my cover. Yes, all along I've been doing nothing but angling for a free Chinese meal with the Shotokan poster girl of my dreams.

    Seriously, though, is the place kosher? If it is, I'm there.

    Earl

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