Systema

[DDATFUS]

Thanks for the reply, Sam. Sorry I didn't get back to this sooner.

It appears that there is not a study group for my area, but I will probably be moving to a more populous region in a year or so, and when I do I will definitely take a look at what is available.

Best,

[Nanban Bushi]

To me, the rather dubious historical claims that the pratitioners of the Systema make are a big red flag. They claim that the Systema was developed in Medieval Russia, so that Mother Russia's warriors could fight off the land's many invaders.

So, what does the crushing defeat of the local Russian boyars by the Mongols in the 13th century (and the subsequent centuries-long occupation of Russia by the Golden Horde) say about the Systema's effectiveness? I guess the Mongol Occupation was a low point in the Systema's supposedly long history!

Given the above, it sounds like modern Systema advocates play upon the Western martial arts public's ignorance of history in general, and of Eastern European military history in particular.

On the practical application side of the coin, I once knife-sparred against a Systema practitioner, using 3-weapon fencing masks and those hard neoprene rubber replicas of A-F fighting knives. My own background is in Western fencing and FMA. I was able to repeatedly land shots on the guy's knife-hand and face--over and over. He had no sense of timing and distance, and seemed lost as soon as each bout began. I don't know what Systema practitioners do--i.e., I don't know if they just do drills, or if they engage in any kind of free-play--but this fellow wasn't dynamic in his movement. He looked good doing various knife disarm drills, but that was about it.

I don't mean for the above example to be representative of Systema as a whole (or even representative at all, since it's just one guy), but I thought I'd share it anyway, FWIW.

[Neil Hawkins]

Let us be careful where this is going. I do not want to see the thread degrade to a arguement over lineage.

Regards

Neil

[Nanban Bushi]

Let us be careful where this is going. I do not want to see the thread degrade to a arguement over lineage.

Regards

Neil

It's not even a question of "lineage" IMO. If Systema practitioners can offer one shred of verifiable evidence that their method dates back to the Middle Ages, and that it was used by Russia's fighting men of the past, then great.

[Lorel]

I think the naysayers ought to visit Vlad and his top students and train with them and then form a judgement on Systema.

[GTO]

Now, from what I've seen of Systema, I like it, but it should be noted that having a skilled founder or top disciple does not necessarily mean that the system as a whole can be disseminated to the average student with such efficiency.

Take aikido, for example. O-sensei was arguably the greatest warrior of the twentieth century, and his uchideshi battled boxers and grapplers with equal success. However, I know quite a few folks with ten years or more of aikido experience that couldn't beat my beginner-level Brazilian jujutsu, much less an opponent skilled at striking fast and hard. This leads me to believe that, while aikido is a certifiably effective art, it is often not taught in a fashion that brings out the strength thereof.

The same could be true of Systema (I don't know, having never gone toe-to-toe with a Systema practitioner). A fighting system ought to be judged by its rank-and-file practitioners as well as its sterling examples.

Thus, "Go train with Vlad" is not persuasive. It's the guy down the street whom Vlad certified to teach that will (or won't) convince me that Systema is effectively taught and not just biomechanically effective.

[DDATFUS]

I think the naysayers ought to visit Vlad and his top students and train with them and then form a judgement on Systema.

Depending on what your priorities are, this argument might or might not be valid. If you are strictly interested in the historical aspect of the art and the legitimacy of the roots of the art, the skill level of any current practitioner is irrelevant. Some people wish to train in arts that allow them to have a direct connection to past warrior traditions, and in order to gratify that desire they feel compelled to research the origins of any style they consider studying. On the other hand, people with an interest in learning an affective fighting art might have no interest at all in the art's origins as long as it works.

I'm not trying to make a value judgment on which of these approaches is correct (really depends on the person, I think) or imply that Systema's official history is inaccurate, just trying to point out the two different viewpoints.

Best,

[budoboy]

Hi,

I've done Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu 16 years, Systema about two years and some other arts for a much shorter period. I am also a police officer and agree with Paul that what confrontations I've had at work more closely mirrored my Systema training than anything else I've studied. I think Systema allows you to think out of the box and not get stuck trying to force an inappropriate solution (technique) onto the problem.

The historical claims aren't so important to me as the training itself. I believe the system has older Russian roots but do not know how far back they go. More importantly it has been tested recently by professionals (busy professionals) in the Russian Special Forces and found to be adequate for their purposes.

In my experience the people who get infatuated with historical lineages many times want to live in some other time period (because their life is too boring or lame) and tend to be talkers and not doers. I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions and I'm not talking about anyone specifically here.

Saying Systema isn't effective because the Mongols beat the Russians in the 13th century is ridiculous. Is there any culture that hasn't been under the boot of their neighbors at one time or another. Would you say Japanese martial arts are ineffective because the allies won WWII? There are other factors besides effectiveness in one-on-one hand-to-hand combat that decides who wins a war.

Also to make generalizations about an arts effectiveness just because you sparred with rubber training knives with a practicioner and "cut him up" is silly. I'm sure I could find a practicioner of any art and "cut him up" while play fighting with knives. I've heard similar things from people denigrating mixed martial arts or Gracie Jujutsu. They will say they grappled with some schlub whose trained a few months in one of these arts and say they were nothing special. They will then extrapolate that there art is superior. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!

Jeff Sherwin

[bukweetz]

Hi Budoboy,

Also to make generalizations about an arts effectiveness just because you sparred with rubber training knives with a practicioner and "cut him up" is silly.

was this the scenario i was talking about earlier on this thread?

if so i will make a further response later.

[Nanban Bushi]

Hi Budoboy,

Hi,

I've done Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu 16 years, Systema about two years and some other arts for a much shorter period. I am also a police officer and agree with Paul that what confrontations I've had at work more closely mirrored my Systema training than anything else I've studied. I think Systema allows you to think out of the box and not get stuck trying to force an inappropriate solution (technique) onto the problem.

The historical claims aren't so important to me as the training itself. I believe the system has older Russian roots but do not know how far back they go. More importantly it has been tested recently by professionals (busy professionals) in the Russian Special Forces and found to be adequate for their purposes.

In my experience the people who get infatuated with historical lineages many times want to live in some other time period (because their life is too boring or lame) and tend to be talkers and not doers. I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions and I'm not talking about anyone specifically here.

Well alright!

But again, I want to stress that I'm not talking about "lineage". I'm not referring to scrolls or masters or what have you. I'm talking about historical claims that are made by Systema advocates. You can see them in any magazine. These claims are clearly made to lend weight to Systema's supposed effectiveness.

Saying Systema isn't effective because the Mongols beat the Russians in the 13th century is ridiculous. Is there any culture that hasn't been under the boot of their neighbors at one time or another. Would you say Japanese martial arts are ineffective because the allies won WWII? There are other factors besides effectiveness in one-on-one hand-to-hand combat that decides who wins a war.

First off, nobody said the Systema wasn't effective because Russia spent a few centuries under the Mongol yoke.

The Systema folks claim that the art dates back to the Middle Ages--they infer that it has a long history of being battle tested. I therefore asked what part Systema played when the Russians had their backsides handed to them by the horsemen of the steppes. Is there anything wrong with that inquiry?

As for there being "other factors besides effectiveness in one-on-one hand-to-hand combat that decides who wins a war", that has to be viewed in the correct historical context. Your comparison with the Japanese in WWII falls flat, because WWII was a modern conflict, involving guns, planes, ships, & tanks far more than HTH combat. During the Middle Ages, however, HTH played a much larger role--for European knights and Japanese bushi, it was a MAJOR form of combat. If the Systema actually existed in, say, the 13th century, one would think there would be considerable application for it.

Certainly, that's what the Systema peddlers want people to believe, right?

Also to make generalizations about an arts effectiveness just because you sparred with rubber training knives with a practicioner and "cut him up" is silly. I'm sure I could find a practicioner of any art and "cut him up" while play fighting with knives. I've heard similar things from people denigrating mixed martial arts or Gracie Jujutsu. They will say they grappled with some schlub whose trained a few months in one of these arts and say they were nothing special. They will then extrapolate that there art is superior. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!

LOL, give me a break.

I never made any "generalizations" about Systema. Allow me to refresh your memory--this is what I posted:

"I don't mean for the above example to be representative of Systema as a whole (or even representative at all, since it's just one guy), but I thought I'd share it anyway, FWIW"

And for the record, this fellow wasn't some new Systema acolyte.

I mentioned the incident because it was very clear that the guy had no sense of timing and distance, and that, in turn, makes me wonder just what his training consisted of.

Peace,

[Paul Genge]

Please get your nose out of your books and do a little training. If it does not suit you that is fine, but stop trying to lecture proffessionals that have found it effective.

On a side not this is an article on survivng knife attack. It lays down some of the drills we use and includes video footage of training drills and work against various un-planned attacks. Enjoy.

Paul Genge

[Nanban Bushi]

Mr. Genge,

Please get your nose out of your books and do a little training. If it does not suit you that is fine, but stop trying to lecture proffessionals that have found it effective.

Apparently, my observations hit a nerve with a few folks.

I really love how you assume that, simply because I'm well-read on certain topics, I'm supposedly not training. That really cracks me up.

So we now have TWO examples of tough guy talk coming from Bujinkan guys (Budoboy claimed he wasn't referring to "anyone specifically here" when he made his little jibe about folks who are supposedly "talkers and not doers", but I now have to wonder, given the tone of your post).

Does it make you feel better (more "professional", perhaps) to try to insult someone you don't even know? Or is it just some sort of faux macho trip you're on? Either way, I'm not impressed.

I feel I made legitimate comments regarding the Systema, both on the historical material and my own (admittedly limited) experience with the method itself. Maybe it's not stuff you wanted to hear, but that does NOT validate your personal online attack upon me.

Therefore, why don't you try something else--flesh out the historical claims surrounding Systema, being that you're a Systema representative.

On a side not this is an article on survivng knife attack. It lays down some of the drills we use and includes video footage of training drills and work against various un-planned attacks. Enjoy.

Paul Genge

Thanks for the link--although due to my restriction to dialup and assorted problems with my PC, I couldn't view the footage. How do you train for knife vs. knife scenarios?

Much Obliged,

[EricH]

I just don't get what the problem is:

A couple of points.

1. Systema is a generic term meaning system. There are lots of systemas. What we are really talking about here are better referred to as russian martial traditions
2. There is nothing static about these 'traditions". ie nobody is claiming that they came down pure and unchanged since the 13th century. In fact the claims are that these traditions evolved through exposure with other cultures (Mongol?) and armaments.
3. If you look at any of the well known systemas (Ryabko, Kadochnikov, or others) you see a common form of movement and approach to conflict that is different from asian arts.

some questions:
1. do you suggest that there is no russian martial tradition that includes hand-to-hand systems?
2. do you suggest that these systems couldn't survived to influence the present day systemas?
3. Does the commonality of difference between russian systemas and Asian martial arts not suggest the existance of a tradition that did survive?

What is the problem?

[Nanban Bushi]

some questions:
1. do you suggest that there is no russian martial tradition that includes hand-to-hand systems?

Obviously, the old boyars had a "martial tradition"--a blend of East and West--that included HTH combat. So no, I'm not suggesting that such a tradition never existed.

2. do you suggest that these systems couldn't survived to influence the present day systemas?

Honestly? I have my doubts, yes.

How much of the Medieval material really survived? So many European systems died out, and so many Asian ones changed drastically. There's no living tradition of German ringkampf, and many Asian methods have morphed into what is essentially performance art (eg., modern wushu).

Let me ask you something. If the old "systems" did survive, then why did the Russians bother to create their composite wrestling form of sambo.

If I'm missing something here, please let me know.

3. Does the commonality of difference between russian systemas and Asian martial arts not suggest the existance of a tradition that did survive?

Not necessarily, no.

It could also suggest a purely modern creation.

What is the problem?

No "problem"--just a lot of reservations and a different perspective.

One aspect of Systema which seems more likely of having been a holdover from an earlier age is the use of the saber, but I have never been able to find any info on the Systema saber curriculum. Coming largely from a fencing background, I'd love to know more about this.

The most I have been able to ascertain about Russian saber usage is that the use of molinelli (circular cuts from the elbow) in the "Radaellian" school of Italian duelling saber is supposed to have been derived specifically from the Cossacks. It's genuinely compelling stuff, but aside from what I just mentioned (which I discovered in Richard Cohen's book, By the Sword), I have been unable to find out anything else.

This thread has become a tad heated at points. Looking back at my original post, I was admittedly a bit... "abrasive" in how I presented my case, and I believe that prompted the defensive response from Budoboy and Mr Genge. I freely admit my error in terms of diplomacy, and I apologize for that (yes, I would probably suck as an ambassador).

However, I still stand by what I say, regarding my doubts as to the Systema's supposed Medieval origins. I also maintain that I was not impressed at all by the one Systema practitioner I worked with.

I am, however, an objective person, and I'm willing to modify my stance on the issues I brought up. Any detailed info concerning the use of the saber in Systema would be a step in the right direction, from my point of view. Tell me the basics of the modern Russian approach to the use of the saber. From there, I can deliberate further.

Thanks,

[Paul Genge]

Check out the Go warrior series on Discovery. It has a segmant where the presenter stays and trains with the cossacks in Siberia. Use of the sabre is demonstrated on this along with many other things. One interesting point is that young kids are seen with the weapons as part of their everyday activities. For the cossacks this is not a martial art, just part of their everyday life.

Just to fill in the link between the cossacks on this documentory and Michael Ryabko, I was in Moscow, training with him, when the film crew did the reccie for the shoot. Michael was the one that organised the trip for them to Siberia. Also one of the students had travelled from Siberia to spend a couple of days with Michael. This is considered normal and it is not unusual for someone to make the journey for only one evening at Michael's house.

Paul Genge