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Thread: Keysi Fighting Method

  1. #31
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    I have to run with the old "Maddog" on that one . The usual reason for fights winding up on the ground is that the protagonists are either 1] drunk 2] not actually any good at fighting standing up 3] Both.

    I only wound up on the ground twice in ten years- however, you need to know what to do when you get there! They were both multiple opponent fracas and my first concern was getting back onto my feet so I wouldn't get stomped to death.

    As for any grappler will beat any striker- sheer bollocks. Its the individual who wins or loses, not the style. If you want to be "street effective" learn grappling and striking. There are plenty of grapplers who can't strike well, and plenty of strikers who can't grapple. They are all at a disadvantage.
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

  2. #32
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    Great Post Jock!



    Cheers Mate!

    Mike Mitchell

  3. #33
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    Default A hippie message from the Tao of Jeet kune do

    Jeet kune do favors formlessness so that it can assume all forms and since Jeet kune do has no style,it can fit in with all styles.As a result,Jeet kune do utilizes all ways and is bound by none and, likewise,uses any techniques or means which serves it's end.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

  4. #34
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    "In your 18 years have you been in alot of street fights?"

    Does getting pounded into the ground count?

    "I can tell you in my 38 years many street fights end up on the ground. It's not always who hits first, but at times it is who hits first. A clinch or grab usually happens as well, even if it's just to grab and hit the person."

    I never said they didn't, I think my quoting is confusing people.

    "Jeet kune do favors formlessness so that it can assume all forms and since Jeet kune do has no style,it can fit in with all styles.As a result,Jeet kune do utilizes all ways and is bound by none and, likewise,uses any techniques or means which serves it's end."

    How about crosstraining in different arts?

    No one had ever done that before...
    That doesn't sound very revolutionary.
    Michael Kelly

    Ironically neither a Niten Ichi practitioner or in fact a ninja.

  5. #35
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    Default Koryu, Judo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maddog Mitchell
    How about crosstraining in different arts? Bruce was one of the first who began really doing this to another level. I'm not talking about Shorin Ryu guys visiting a Goju dojo either.
    snip
    W/all due respect, Musha shugyo was not just a period of intensive self-training, but often involved taking (at least aspects of) 'new' approaches into one's art... this was popular in Edo... Kano had many practitioners of other (not just 'jujutsu') arts at the Kodokan...

    Be well,
    Jigme
    Jigme Chobang Daniels
    aoikoyamakan at gmail dot com

  6. #36
    Bustillo, A. Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenkyusha
    W/all due respect, Musha shugyo was not just a period of intensive self-training, but often involved taking (at least aspects of) 'new' approaches into one's art... this was popular in Edo... Kano had many practitioners of other (not just 'jujutsu') arts at the Kodokan...

    Be well,
    Jigme
    Good point. But during his era, mid 1960s to early 1970s, --and even now--most traditional martial artist didn't venture out of what they consider a traditional art. Fine if that's what they decide but they then can not be considered doing serious cross-training or experimenting with other ideas and methods. For the most part, due to the "because sensei said so" syndrome they didn't dare deviate much from the methods of the system.


    Examples of the "because sensei said so syndrome."

    Karaetka on mawashi geri.
    "Do what... kick like what was that you called it, Muay thai style.... not chambering my kick and pulling snapping it back. Sensei didn't teach it like that. That's no roundhouse."

    karateka on punching.
    "DO WHAT? Punch like a boxer? You mean no pulling my punch back to the hip . Are you crazy. I already know I ihave a good punch because sensei says we're punching correctly when we hear the gi snap. Sensei didn't teach us to do those boxing style uppercuts and hooks.!"

    Last one.

    "Keep my hands up while fighting to protect my face? Lord no. It's not in the kata..."
    Last edited by Bustillo, A.; 5th November 2005 at 15:29.

  7. #37
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    It's true perhaps that people seemed to had forgotten to crosstrain.
    Michael Kelly

    Ironically neither a Niten Ichi practitioner or in fact a ninja.

  8. #38
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    So does everyone here crosstrain? or do you all have one MA that you stick to and occasionally venture out into another?

    Shorinji Kempo's the only one I do, but I'd like to do Aikido as well later on, when I'm a bit older - in Glasgow there's a few very very good Aikido Sensei that I'd like to train under...
    JC McCrae

  9. #39
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    Default wax on, wax off!

    please see

    http://www.geoffthompson.com/guest_w...hy/default.htm

    quote

    Geoff Thompson. I have always taught karate as an all-encompassing art, and this book - to me - proves that it really is. Why does the watered down karate that reaches the dojos not represent the karate-concentrate that you portray in this book?

    IA. There are many historical reasons for this - that would be too lengthy to go into here - but I feel the main problem is the undervaluing of the katas in favour of the art's sporting aspect. Many people belittle karate's sporting side and I feel this is fundamentally wrong. Sport karate is exiting to watch and requires great skill. It has also benefited karate as a whole through the introduction of more productive and scientific training methods. The problem occurs when we try to take the methods of one environment and try to apply them in another. Sport karate has evolved from sparring based upon the "one blow-one kill" concept and hence does not permit many of karate's close range techniques on the grounds that should a specific technique be delivered with force the fight would be over. Many of the more dangerous techniques are also omitted for the safety of the participants, e.g. groin strikes. The use of sporting techniques in a real fight will lead to defeat as sure as using the katas techniques in competition will lead to disqualification. What is referred to as watered down karate is often the result of insufficient study of the katas and instructors passing off sporting methods as self-defence techniques to their students. The katas were devised long before the evolution of competition and it is within them we should look if effective fighting skills are our aim.

    Geoff Thompson. From my own experience of kata/bunkai practice, classes learn a given applications, do it a couple of times, and then move on to something else. Do you think that there is room in the contemporary dojo to incorporate grappling - as taught in kata - into the curriculum proper?

    IA. There simply has to be. Without the inclusion of the close range aspects, on a consistent basis, the art is essentially incomplete. Grappling is part of karate and it is my view that it must be included in regular practice. The striking should always be the priority however. It has been said that the essence of karate is found in ending the fight with a single blow. Close range fighting includes both striking and grappling and it is important to use the right method at the right time. When an opponent makes their initial grip, it is not our aim to become involved in a long drawn out wrestling match. The more time we spend entangled with an opponent, the more time their unentangled colleagues will have to repeatedly strike us. Grappling an opponent into submission can take time, whereas a well placed strike can end a fight in a split second. A great many of the kata's grappling techniques free limbs and position opponents so decisive strikes can take place. The danger is that we place so much emphasis on the striking that we totally omit the grappling. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link and hence grappling should be a part of regular practice.



    Geoff Thompson. How is it Ian that all of this amazing bunkai has escaped the knowledge of the regular dan grade?

    IA. As I mentioned earlier, there are many historical reasons relating to the ways in which the katas were taught. As an example, when Master Itsou introduced karate onto the physical education program of the Shuri Jinjo elementary school in Okinawa, he believed Karate to be too dangerous to be taught to children and set about disguising the more dangerous techniques. As a result of this change in approach, the children were taught the katas as mostly blocking & punching. This enabled the children to gain such benefits as improved health and discipline from their karate practice without giving them knowledge of the highly effective & dangerous fighting techniques that the katas contain. The terminology used by Itsou when teaching children is the one most prevalent today and hence the labels attached to techniques often have no bearing upon their intended use. So a modern karate student may simply accept that a certain movement is a "block" and never look for the movement's true purpose. There are numerous other historical reasons in addition; things like the original secrecy surrounding the art, the katas and their applications etc. I feel, however, that the main reason is that many people practice the katas but few study them. No matter how nice a kata looks, it is of little use if the techniques and concepts it contains cannot be utilised. All the information is there, you just have to study it. The regular dan grade tends to view kata as a pointless activity that is begrudgingly learnt and practised simply to satisfy grading requirements. I think it was Einstein who said that you could look at the surface of an orange in an infinite number of ways but it would not be until you split it open that you would learn what an orange was all about. The word, "bunkai" means, "to dissect." Study the katas in-depth and all the knowledge is there for the taking. If you wish to acquire anything of value you have to be prepared to pay the cost. Many don't spend enough time on the katas and hence fail to extract the profound knowledge they contain.




    '' Geoff Thompson. I studied boxing for many years and I couldn't believe how similar many of the hand movements and footwork were to karate - especially in the bunkai. Should we also have a look at boxing, perhaps even Thai, indeed should we look at lots of different arts to better understand our own?

    IA. It is a bit like music. All the music in the world, from Mozart to Motorhead, is based upon the same principles. Different musical styles emphasise the various principles to differing levels, in a similar way to differing martial arts styles, but they are essentially based upon the same concepts. There are only so many ways to punch, throw, strangle etc. I am constantly looking at how other arts apply the principles contained within the karate katas and adapting those aspects into my training if appropriate. I think everyone else should as well. Another important thing is that if you do not know what a throw, or a choke, or a lock looks like you will never see it in the kata. Looking at other arts will definitely help you to understand, and refine, the principles and techniques already contained within your own art.

    theres many more articles about karate and many other arts on this site,
    well worth a look!

    Paul Greaves
    ''Skill is aquired via sweat equity''

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maddog Mitchell
    Great Post Jock!



    Cheers Mate!

    Mike Mitchell
    I Second that!
    All My Best,

    Todd Wayman

    "…since karate is a martial art, you must practice with the utmost seriousness from the very beginning."

    - G. Funakoshi, Karate-Do Nyumon, 1943

  11. #41
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    Default Please don't kill us were just Hippy messengers

    Organized Despair from the Tao of Jeet Kune-Do,

    In the long history of martial arts,the instinct to follow and imitate seems to be inherent in most martial artists,instructors and students alike.This is partly due to human tendency and partly because of the steep traditions behind multiple patterns of styles.Consequnetly,to find a refreshing original,master teacher is a rarity.The need for a "pointer of the way"echoes.

    Each man belongs to a style which claims to posses truth to the exclusion of all other styles.These styles become institutes with their explanations of the "way"dissecting and isolating the harmony of firmness and gentlleness,establishing rhythmic forms as the particular state of their techniques.

    Instead of facing combat in its suchness,then,most systems of martial arts accumulate a "fancy mess" that distorts and cramps their practicioners and distracts them from the actual reality of combat,which is simple and direct.Instead of going imediately to the heart of things,flowery forms(organized despair)and artificial techniques are ritualistically practiced to simiulate actual combat.Thus,instead of being in combat these practicioners are"doing" something "about" combat.

    Worse still super mental power and spiritual this and spiritual that are desperately incorporated unitl these practicioners drift further and further into mystery and abstraction.All such things are futile attempts to arrest and fix the ever-changing movements in combat and to dissect and analyze them like a corpse.

    When you get down to it,real combat is not fixed and is very much "alive."the fancy mess (a form of parylisis) soldifies and conditions what was once fluid,and when you look at it realistically,it is nothing but a blind devotion to the systematic uselessness of practicing routines or stunts that lead nowhere.
    Last edited by hectokan; 8th November 2005 at 03:02.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Organized Despair from the Tao of Jeet Kune-Do

    But surely in JKD you must learn some techniques: if not, then what do your classes entail? Do you just all fight each other until you learn by trial-and-error what works?

    What guard(s) do you use? how do you punch? how do you kick? etc. I know that at the start MA practice can look artificial, but if shu, ha, ri is anything like true after a few years you begin to practice the MA in a different way, adapting it to your own body shape and mental makeup. Hopefully, with a bit of luck you'll reach the Ri stage, and whilst still practicing your MA will no longer be limited by it.
    JC McCrae

  13. #43
    Bustillo, A. Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by jailess
    1.) But surely in JKD you must learn some techniques: if not, then what do your classes entail? Do you just all fight each other until you learn by trial-and-error what works?

    2.) ...after a few years you begin to practice the MA in a different way, adapting it to your own body shape and mental makeup. .

    1.) You can learn technique and how to defend yourself without learning a set of patterns, forms, kata.

    2.) In part , that is what they mean about going at it in a roundabout way. Certain fundamentals are important to learn, however, you shouldn't have to wait a few years to adapt to your body type.

  14. #44
    The Kai Guest

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    1.) Everything is a form, shadowboxing to full kata

    2.) The body take years to make adaptions to stress, weightlifters, natural body builders are'nt born in a week. Neither should a martial artist

  15. #45
    Bustillo, A. Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kai
    1.) Everything is a form, shadowboxing to full kata

    2.) The body take years to make adaptions to stress, weightlifters, natural body builders are'nt born in a week. Neither should a martial artist

    1.) You misunderstood how we are using the term 'form." In this case, form=kata.

    2.) Here again you are not following the concept we are discussing. You're correct that it takes time to develop skills. However, what the Tao of JKD refers to, and what we're addressing, is completely different.
    Last edited by Bustillo, A.; 8th November 2005 at 18:14.

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