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Thread: Book: "Discovering Aiki: My 20 Years with Yukiyoshi Sagawa", by Kimura Tatsuo

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arman
    I have to admit some of Dan's point. You can tell someone all the secrets you want until you're blue in the face and most won't ever really get it.

    In the end, DR is hard enough to grasp that IMO it really doesn't matter how open someone might try to make it; it will remain in the domain of the committed few.
    Then why all of the secrecy? Through the years Okamoto Sensei has received a good deal of critism for teaching openly and sharing the aiki no jitsu portion of the art. I have heard him state that he can demonstrate it over and over, but it can't be stolen, it can only be earned (learned) with dedication to training. Hence he doesn't even try to hide, and yet he has been knocked many times for being open.

    I'm not really asking for an answer here as this question has been discussed in the past and each of us has our own opinion. Although I note that some of those opinions might be changing slightly. Take care.

    Mark J.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Jakabcsin
    Then why all of the secrecy?
    Mark J.
    1. General tradition dating back to earlier times in which it was a bad idea to let potential enemies see your stuff.

    2. More particularly, because Takeda Sokaku was a man who was suspicious to a point that would be called paranoia in contemporary society, although there are a fair number of indications in what we know of his life that there may well have been people out to get him for quite understandable reasons of which he was well aware.

    3. Even people for whom 1 & 2 are not issues, there are otherwise reasonably well-adjusted folks who want to learn the stuff badly enough that they are willing to accept the condition of secrecy, whether it's a personal issue for them or not.

    4. Secrecy can make very ordinary things seem special. Of course, the fact that most ordinary things really are quite special seems to be a secret that most people keep from themselves all their lives, myself included.

    Best,

  3. #18
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    "... Of course, the fact that most ordinary things really are quite special seems to be a secret that most people keep from themselves all their lives, myself included."

    Or is it that most special and secret things are really quite ordinary?
    I think it just depends on the circles you walk in, and the company you keep.
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

  4. #19
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    ... and whether or not you are "special" yourself...


    What does kind of bug me about secrecy is when it becomes fetishistic. Yeah, there are secret things and there are secret things. More often than not secret things just make communication harder. After going round and round about some secret thing someone finally throws up a video or talks in plain English and suddenly it is "Oh, just that?"

    On the other hand when beset by swine, keep walking with pearls safely in hand.
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Elias
    "... Of course, the fact that most ordinary things really are quite special seems to be a secret that most people keep from themselves all their lives, myself included."

    Or is it that most special and secret things are really quite ordinary?
    I think it just depends on the circles you walk in, and the company you keep.
    Why decide? Once that boundary ceases to look so firm, so many more things are possible than before.....

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    Decide what?

    ???
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

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    This is starting to sound like a "Calvin and Hobbes" comic strip ("Seeeecret secrets!").

    I subscribe to Doug's pearls vs. swine concept, in general. But as Dan will tell you (with little prompting or encouragement... ), only the really dedicated will work it and work it until they can do it and understand it. So, it doesn't really matter in the long run who hears what.
    Cady Goldfield

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th June 2014 at 22:35.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  9. #24
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    I hear you Nathan, but you can go mad reading two people arguing "my wife is great because I get blow jobs" vs. "well I'd agree except fellatio is what is really the best!"

    Makes you want to kill them with a knife!
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

  10. #25
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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th June 2014 at 22:36.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  11. #26
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    I finished reading the English portion today. Interesting read, if not overly helpful, although that was expected. The book has many great pictures, which to me was worth the price of the book. The 48 page article is simply a bonus.

    Any way, I found the following 3 paragraphs most interesting and they left me smiling for obvious reasons. This can be found on page 40 of the English portion:

    "Until I began to grasp Aiki I used to practice thinking that I understood what it was. Sensei just watched me for about three months without saying anything.Then, one day he suddenly said, "What you are doing is not Aiki. Aiki is like this." Sensei showed me my way of doing the technique and then using Aiki. I could clearly see the difference and was convinced by what Sensei said. Again, I started to think about what I could do. Then surprisingly, some new idea would come and I would think again that this was Aiki. Moreover, the people around me would say that what I was doing was wonderful and I was easily misled. THis process went on and on.

    "Even though I studied under Sagawa Sensei for such a long time, I misunderstood many times what Aiki is. I felt that many people with some ability misunderstand that what they are doing is Aiki. Sagawa Sensei told me that he thought what he was doing was the same Aiki that Takeda Sensei did, but that he wasn't sure. He said that's just the way things are.

    "Sagawa Sensei did everything to me in a manner similar to what he himself had experienced. One time in the kitchen, Sensei said, "This is what Takeda Sensei told me about Aiki. Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of his words." He also said, "That is all that I heard from Takeda Sensei about Aiki. I taught you this, okay?" Sensei also said, "One must grasp Aiki directly. This is how I did it, but it might not be possible for you to learn it if I don't teach you how I came to understand it.

    "Thus, even though I gained a glimpse of Aiki, it is not true that Sagawa Sensei cnofirmed the fact that what I was doing was Aiki. ......."


    Several good stories and small insights.
    Mark J.

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th June 2014 at 22:36.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  13. #28
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    Nathan, I would like to thank you for posting the translation on the forum. It makes for thought provoking introspection in ones search for their own Aiki. A few years ago I found the book "The Hidden Roots of Aikido" and became absolutly fascinated with the Daito-Ryu System. My curiosity was especially sparked in the area of the Aiki no Jutsu. The techniques were astounding to me. Mind you, I had trained in the arts approx 37 (Karate, Judo, Jujitsu and recently Aikido) years before I saw some of the intricacies of DR. Had heard of the art but few people could give me much of any info on the particulars of the art. The secrecy (which has been adressed in this thread) prevails until you learn to navigate the waters of investigation. I am glad I did. I was accepted into a group lead by DR Roppokai Sensei Jose Lopez (one of Okamoto Senseis senior students) and started my training 2 weeks ago. Wearing a white belt (which I had not done for quite a while, unless visiting a Dojo) I was manipulated in ways I had not even phathomed. The ease with which Lopez Sensei manipulated my body (and others in the group) with such minute movement and relaxation was astounding. There may be much discussion or picking apart of the DR system but nothing make you more of a believer than being on the RECIEVING END of these techniques. I was then allowed to give the technique to others. I believe that this is where the connection to finding true Aiki begins, in the doing, not really in the talking.
    Last edited by Jitsumania; 26th July 2006 at 15:05.
    Rick Torres, Dojo Cho
    Integrity Defensive Arts
    Victoria, Texas
    www.ksrjujitsu.com
    [/B]

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    Hey Nathan,

    Thanks for sharing that with us. It is remarkable to read Sagawa and Ueshiba, and how much alike they were in their writing. If you'd like to show off more of your translating skills with more stuff like this, I think everyone here would enjoy it **nudge, nudge**

    Thanks again,
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th June 2014 at 22:37.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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