Likes Likes:  0
Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: Techniques Or Principles ?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    317
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Techniques Or Principles ?

    Obviously everyone is at a different stage of 'understanding' mentally and physically their art.

    However my expierience seems to point that the majority of dojo teach technique to eventually lead to understanding of principles (thats how I learned).

    Is this not the wrong way around? ie teach the principle and then let the technique fit that?

    interested in your thoughts, obviously i understand in early training 'simple technical structure' is important, but is it really in the scheme of things.

    Also many translations in sylabuses of oriental terms are given for say 'head punch', but rarely are the underlying principles given - is this the 'secrets' that only serious long term practioners are allowed to learn maybee?????? (I think it is)

    I make these comments outside of the fact that alot more principle driven info is avalaible these days compared to say 20 years ago.
    Rgds,

    Jim Neeter
    Shorin Ryu Seito Matsumura Karate and Kobudo UK
    www.shoshinkanuk.org

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    751
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default Great question................

    Jim,

    Great question.

    I've discussed this with a several Sensei over the last year.

    I am not one of the those guys that can be exposed to a technique and then immediately repeat it. I don't have a thousand technique syllabus and probably never will, but I do understand underlying principles.

    When I teach, I look at the student and how they learn. Some students can see it once and repeat it a hundred times, but not be able to tell you why or how it works.

    Others get the principle but can't make the action work until their minds have processed the action for a while.

    Ultimately putting them both together takes time.

    As a teacher being aware of these different learning styles is very important.
    R. Kite
    Budoka 34
    "Study hard and all things can be accomplished; give up and you will amount to nothing".

    -Yamaoka Tesshu

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    317
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Thanks for the interesting reply,


    I see where your coming from, however my point was really aimed at why is an awful lot fo karate taught in this way as opposed to explaining principles and then showing the technique?
    Rgds,

    Jim Neeter
    Shorin Ryu Seito Matsumura Karate and Kobudo UK
    www.shoshinkanuk.org

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    751
    Likes (received)
    1

    Wink Ooops again............

    Sorry Jim,

    I misunderstood.

    I think it is like that to weed out the, how do I put this, weaklings?

    People that have no interest in really learning for themselves will follow along in class but never go beyond. The people that really want to understand how things work will research, practice and experiment. They focus on every movement and word of thier teacher. The others won't and therefore never gain the depth of knowledge of a true practitioner.

    I hope that makes sense.

    I come from a educator/counselor background so my focus has always been to pass on the principle as well as the technique.

    When I first started teaching my Instructor would gently discourage me from giving away to much in class.

    "The answers" he likes to say, "are in the training".

    Now I know what he means.
    R. Kite
    Budoka 34
    "Study hard and all things can be accomplished; give up and you will amount to nothing".

    -Yamaoka Tesshu

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    317
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Nice point and an explanation that i have heard as well. I see its use, but im not convinced that makes real sense.

    Surley any martial art group (not commercial) owes it to its students (all of whom should be dedicated, or not training) to teach 'the real' principle behind the techniques?

    My limited knowlegde suggests that martial arts historically were taught to a small group, often individually over a long period, maybee the large class formatt has 'changed' how martial arts are delivered to groups of people and this is the key driver to the method?

    However I do understand the benefit of just 'doing' what your shown particulary in the context of 'modern' dojo, im just not convinced that this is the traditional method.
    Rgds,

    Jim Neeter
    Shorin Ryu Seito Matsumura Karate and Kobudo UK
    www.shoshinkanuk.org

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    751
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default "Old School"

    Jim,

    Based on my research, depending on how far back you go, many instructors didn't even understand the biomechanics of some techniques.

    I believe this is why/how some of the mysticism of the arts began and continued. Proper body alingment and muscle impulse was interpreted as powerful Ki, etc...

    As for being "traditional" I think it depends on how we define the term.

    The use of line drills and an organized curriculum to train large numbers traces it's lineage, as near as I can find, to after the Meiji restoration in Japan and the influence of Military advisors from European countries. From what I've read these training methods impacted Karate in the late 1800s or early 1900s.
    R. Kite
    Budoka 34
    "Study hard and all things can be accomplished; give up and you will amount to nothing".

    -Yamaoka Tesshu

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    317
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    'The use of line drills and an organized curriculum to train large numbers traces it's lineage, as near as I can find, to after the Meiji restoration in Japan and the influence of Military advisors from European countries. From what I've read these training methods impacted Karate in the late 1800s or early 1900s.'


    In a roundabout way i think this awnsers my question. Personally I havent found any suggestion that this was the common training method before 1900.

    If nothing else it confirms my direction for 'traditional' training methods, many thanks.
    Rgds,

    Jim Neeter
    Shorin Ryu Seito Matsumura Karate and Kobudo UK
    www.shoshinkanuk.org

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    751
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default Cool...

    Jim,

    From what I've read, pior to the introduction of the modern teaching methods Okinawan martial arts were taught via small goups working kata and "partner drills". Practitioners would often train by themselves, working kata and conditioning.


    We have a small core of students who train in this manner.
    R. Kite
    Budoka 34
    "Study hard and all things can be accomplished; give up and you will amount to nothing".

    -Yamaoka Tesshu

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Merced Ca.
    Posts
    436
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    IMHO…Almost sounds like the proverbial chicken before the egg argument. On the surface it does seem that learning the principle prior to the technique would be correct way but, to learn the principle takes time and conditioning of the body before the principle can be EFFECTIVLY learned, this can only be done by learning the technique first. An example: Learning body mechanics (ie hip twitching). The theory to learn is utilizing the body efficiently in order to execute the strongest possible technique. Teaching (telling) the principle all day will never be absorbed by a student. The student must feel it for them selves and that only will come from doing the technique (many times). You can inform the student of the principle (end result) but, for them to learn the theory it must be done a little at a time from the individual.
    If any of that makes sense.
    All My Best,

    Todd Wayman

    "…since karate is a martial art, you must practice with the utmost seriousness from the very beginning."

    - G. Funakoshi, Karate-Do Nyumon, 1943

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    317
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Thanks for the input guys,

    Its good to see that im not alone in my expierience and manner of training.
    Rgds,

    Jim Neeter
    Shorin Ryu Seito Matsumura Karate and Kobudo UK
    www.shoshinkanuk.org

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    751
    Likes (received)
    1

    Wink Learn something every day

    If any of that makes sense.
    Perfect sense, well Stated!
    R. Kite
    Budoka 34
    "Study hard and all things can be accomplished; give up and you will amount to nothing".

    -Yamaoka Tesshu

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Fraser Valley BC, Canada
    Posts
    224
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by twayman
    IMHO…Almost sounds like the proverbial chicken before the egg argument. On the surface it does seem that learning the principle prior to the technique would be correct way but, to learn the principle takes time and conditioning of the body before the principle can be EFFECTIVLY learned, this can only be done by learning the technique first. An example: Learning body mechanics (ie hip twitching). The theory to learn is utilizing the body efficiently in order to execute the strongest possible technique. Teaching (telling) the principle all day will never be absorbed by a student. The student must feel it for them selves and that only will come from doing the technique (many times). You can inform the student of the principle (end result) but, for them to learn the theory it must be done a little at a time from the individual.
    If any of that makes sense.


    I agree:

    My sensei is Okinawa trained and he basiclly does the same. If I can be so bold as to say that first they want the body to do, and then when it gets close and the spirit has shown dedication then they will actually begin to talk about it hahahahahah

    For years we hear about the senior students learning the "secret" lessons. After 20+ years I am beginning to feel as a senior student. Something struck me a while back. I dont think sensei actually "shares" those secrets, a better term might be that he confirms them when the student begins to realize them .

    Have you ever trained a technique for years and one day simply realized something small but signifigant about it? Later you realize that this small thing you "discovered" applies in other areas also. So you talk to sensei about it and he gives you the old "Well of course" routine like you should have seen this years ago, or "doesnt everyone know this"

    I truly beleive that studying the arts is a personal journey. That learning the subtle points of mechanics, strategy, movement and learning them to the point of them being second nature is the beginning. Once we "do without thinking" that is when the secrets "make themselves known"

    Not to get to melodramatic, and then again maybe my geritol is kicking in, but I think after years of hearing "There are no secret or advanced techniques, only the same technique practiced a million times" It is finally beginning to sink in.

    I teach principles, but I find it hard if the student cant do the technique first. I can talk till I'm blue in the face, and it seems that years later they say.... "Sensei did you know that that principle you told me about years ago in Seisan kata, also exists in Chinto?"..................... and I confirm this and say..... "keep practicing"

    Practice, practice, practice, and when your all done that, practice some more.

    or....

    repitition, repitition, repitition.


    Mike O'Leary
    Old Dragon

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •