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Thread: How Ryu are established

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    Default How Ryu are established

    Hello,

    I have a question for the long-time koryu practicioners and historians of the group. How do you think a ryu comes to be? I'm not talking about stories of deities imparting techniques or recognition by an established beauracratic source. I mean the down and dirty. I have been thinking about this and trying to approach it in the most realistic, natural way. I will impart now what I have come up with and would be eager to hear your thoughts, comments, corrections, etc.

    Yoshitomo Toji and Harakawa Souji are sitting around getting drunk. Both are trying to come to grips with the fact that in a couple of weeks they will be thrown into battle.
    Toji: "Dude....I heard that guy Ueno has been in like 20 battles!"
    Souji: "No way."
    Toji: "Yes way!"
    Souji: "How did he survive?"
    Toji: "Have you seen that guy? He's pretty mean."
    Souji: "Yeah, but Ryoma was mean too, and he died....Ueno must know something everyone else doesn't!"
    Toji: "Well damn, let's go ask him!"

    So they go to Ueno's house. Ueno doesn't really know all that much. He survived originally because he was strong, fast, and mean. However, along the way he learned a trick or two.

    Toji/Souji: "Hey, we have to go out to battle in a few...can you tell us what you did to stay alive?"
    Ueno: "Well...when they attacked I just..."
    At this point Ueno describes some very rudimentary thing that has kept him alive. When they attack, deflect the sword and stab them through the thoat or stomach. When they attack, move around it and cut them from clavicle to hip. Whatever. Really the important thing here is that it is little different than today, where one "experienced" fighter informally teaches another fighter a trick or two that he has learned. Ueno has the two attack him and he does his thing, smacking them both around a little to illustrate his point. The two eventually go home and practice on each other a little.

    So Toji/Souji go into battle. Both try to utilize the tricks Ueno taught them. Souji doesn't do so well and dies in the battle. Toji, on the other hand, is able to get the feel of what Ueno was talking about and utilize it. He even find a couple of other points about the tricks, and a few variations that popped out when he was suddenly faced with a sword wielding lunatic doing something different than what he expected.

    Many years later, Sakamoto and Yoshi are hanging out, getting drunk. They are going to go into battle very soon and are afraid. The same conversation that we saw before ensues, with one difference:
    Yoshi: "Dude....I heard that guy Toji has been in like 20 battles!"

    So they go to Toji's house and ask him for help.

    Toji: "Well, when I was first gonna go into battle, my friend Ueno told me to do [enter tricks here]. So I did that. I also found that if you do [enter the stuff Toji added here] it works really well too."

    So this continues for many years. With most iterations of it, a few people try to just imitate what they are told and die, and a few really try to grasp the essence of the "tricks" and survive and refine them. After a few more years of this sort of thing, someone realizes that there is a central feature to all these "tricks": [enter movement/umvelt/personality that will become foundation of ryu here]. And there we have the foundation of the lineage, though, in true Japanese spirit, this person will either give responsibility to his teacher, and his teacher's teacher, and so on, all the way back to Ueno, OR they will claim that it was given to them by a divinity. (And lets be honest, this person might very well have seen a divinity: the result of exhaustive solitary training and many head injuries......or hey, maybe there really are deities out there handing out martial secrets, I don't discount anything.)

    This is somewhat simplified, obviously. The main things I am trying to get across and am asking are these:

    1) Do you think that the first headmaster of most schools is the person who recognized the underlying "theme" of the school- its umvelt as Mr. Lowry once put it? Or is it the person to whom the origin of the teaching can be traced back to? That is, Ueno?

    2) If it is Ueno, does that not mean that most schools first headmaster was most likely some guy who was just really good at fighting, and happened to learn some things?

    3) The first trasmission of a lineage was not some formal passing on of secrets, but just one guy showing another guy some stuff that had worked. Only years later and many warriors gone have the things been refined and sculpted into the techniques they will end up as today? (I know this is also simplistic- as Ellis Amdur has made clear about Araki-Ryu and I think is true of all good ryu, refinement never really stops, however you have to be honest about what you can add if you have never been in a real swordfight or fought with spears on horseback, etc.)

    While I love and appreciate the romanticized stories that make up martial lineages, from a purely logical and combative perspective, it seems the the formation of a ryu is simply this. Some tough mean guy survives long enough to figure out some stuff. He shows/teaches/beats it to some others people, almost undoubtably at their bequest, as they recognize him as an authority for no other reason than that he has survived as long as he has in battle and most likely gained a reputation for being really good. Some die, some get it and form their own reputations, building on what they have learned as need arises. This continues until someone realized that there is more to this than some "tricks". Eventually the mean guys tricks have evolved into a full system of combat that is formally passed along.

    Love to hear your thoughts- and I have thick skin so lay the criticism on me.

    Thanks,

    Arnold Davies.

  2. #2
    Light Samurai Guest

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    Those are actually better theories then mine. For me, it's be people, thinking of what attacks someone would give, and how to parry them. I play around sometimes, with a bokken, and will relate one of my techniques.

    Attacker goices a shomen uchi (From Jodan no kamae) to my head.
    I or the Defender blocks upwards, steps to the side, gives slight tension when the blades hit, I'm out of the way of the path of the sword, and I left my sword follow his path downwards, until I pull out the sword, so I circle around my sword aroiund my head, and downwards, to his head.

    It sounds complex, but is really simple.

    With that in mind, again here is the basis for my theory:

    1.) Person envisions how someone will attack.
    2.) Person texts it out with someone else, using bokken, or in some later times, shinai.
    3.) If it works well, he tries it out on the battlefield.

    At this point, if he lives, it worked. He can create multiple technqiues, try them all out, and then test them - I think it was a matter of trial and error, since no technique works all the time, against everyone, and there is always a way out of that technique.

    Peace.

  3. #3
    Bill Gallant Guest

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    Don't forget these guys got paid to teach swordsmanship. It's a family business.

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    Default

    I think you're pretty close to the truth of the thing, that idea combined with the professional bujutsu teachers (remember that the sword was NOT a primary weapon of the Japanese warrior, but rather the bow for higher class guys, the spear for us grunts).

    Swords were symbols of privilege and status and weapons of almost-last resort.

    Most warriors (being the grunts) got handed a spear and drilled.

    'Right lads, stay in formation, now ...'

    'STEP'.
    'Parry'.
    'THRUST'.
    'Twist'.
    'Pull'.

    'Good. Do it again.'

    'Dammit Aki, how many freaking times do I have to TELL you, pointy end goes toward the ENEMY! Now drop and give me fifty. Yoshi, go see the doc and get that stitched up ...'
    Last edited by Chuck.Gordon; 21st November 2005 at 16:36. Reason: repairing wine-induced dyslexia
    Chuck Gordon
    Mugendo Budogu
    http://www.budogu.com/

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    Default Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo

    From a "Kendo World" article (Vol. 2, No. 2, 2003) by Antony Cundy, a member of the Tradition.

    "Origins

    Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo, the tradition’s formal title, was founded by Mima Yoichizaemon Kagenobu (1577-1665) in around 1615. Yoichizaemon was born in the Dewa fiefdom to Mima Saigu a priest at the Junisha Gongen Shrine. Sadly, the actual sight of the shrine and the grave of the founder are no longer verifiable as they were both destroyed by landslide in the 18th century.

    As a child Yoichizaemon studied the swordsmanship of the Bokuden Ryu, founded by Tsukuhara Bokuden, as well as a form of jojutsu practiced by Yamabushi, mountain warrior priests, called Kongo Jo Joho.

    It was in the Spring of Yoichizaemon’s 18th year that he was to encounter a new and startling art, when his father’s friend Sakurai Goroemon Naomitsu came to visit the family. Being renowned in the local area for his martial skills Yoichizaemon asked Naomitsu for a friendly duel, which would be presided over by the former’s father, a challenge Naomitsu happily accepted.

    At the appointed time Yoichizaemon faced his opponent in a chudan posture and Naomitsu in his yamabushi like attire, strangely with his sword thrust through his belt, placed his hand on the sword’s tsuka. Both competitors then advanced to the critical distance. Yoichizaemon, feeling suppressed by his opponents poise and unusual way of carrying the sword retreated one step to assume a jodan kamae. But, in that very moment Naomitsu loosed his blade sending it flying under Yoichizaemon’s guard and stopping it sharply in front of his face. ‘That’s enough,’ called Mima Saigu and the encounter was over. It was an exhibition of iaijutsu that would change Yoichizaemon’s life.

    Naomitsu was actually a student of the iai innovator and founder of the Hayashizaki Ryu, Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu (1559-1604) and remained with the Mima family for the next 3 months in order to impart the outline of Hayashizaki’s teachings to the eager young Yoichizaemon.

    Having gained a degree of understanding of the art from Naomitsu, Yoichizaemon vowed to develop his own system of iai by searching the deepest levels of this martial discipline. It is said that he spent his days drawing against a tree in the precincts of the shrine and in the evenings knelt before an altar and prayed for guidance from the deities.

    To advance his studies further Yoichizaemon went on his first Musha Shugyo a traveling form of trial by combat in which warriors would voyage to different areas to test their martial skills against those of other traditions. He traveled to such places as Omine, Togakure, Ontake, Katsuragi and Tateyama. It was during this excursion that he met Sohei, warrior monks from Mt. Hiei who were fleeing the wrath of Oda Nobunaga, from whom Yoichizaemon learnt a system of battlefield naginata.

    Twenty years had past since Yoichizaemon had sworn his oath to create a new system of iai, years in which he had polished himself by day and by night. It was in the middle of that twentieth night that Yoichizaemon gained enlightenment when, while kneeling in front of a shrine’s altar, he had a vision of a sphere in which were the forms of white gulls floating without conscious thought on water. He ran out into the shrine’s garden and grabbed a bokuto which he now found he could wield in any direction without fear or conscious thought.

    Based on his vision Yoichizaemon created the traditions 64 core techniques, a figure taken from the 28 areas of heaven surrounded by 36 birds of earth represented in a mandala that Yoichizaemon drew immediately after his revelation. He named his tradition Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo, Suio utilizing the characters for water and gull, and placed within its teachings the arts of Iai, Kenpo (an alternate name for kenjutsu), Naginata, Kogusoku (a form of grappling) and jojutsu.

    Even after achieving enlightenment and founding his own system Yoichizaemon continued to travel to test both his faith in the gods and his sword arm. It is believed though that this was not a voyage to gain victories and conquests, rather a test of his ability to achieve a state of selflessness. Yoichizaemon saw the practice of swordsmanship as a form of ablution to the gods and his own body as a vehicle to achieving a harmonization with the deities.

    When he faced an opponent Yoichizaemon would never attempt to win by trickery or fancy techniques, rather he always aimed to perform aiuchi (lit: mutual strike), which would force his opponents to retire or face certain death.

    Yoichizaemon stated that

    “Our swordsmanship comes from the mountain ascetics. The essence of our tradition, and the attainment of an unassailable position, comes from cutting down our opponents while the sword is still in the scabbard, stifling our opponent’s actions and achieving victory through not drawing the sword. While engaged in combat, detach yourself from all thoughts of winning or losing, achieve a pure and unfettered mind and attain unification with the gods.”

    Yoichizaemon used his spacious dojo to teach not only martial techniques but also taught of the universe through a Heaven and Earth Mandala that he had hung on its wall. At the age of 67 he retired from active teaching, passing responsibility to his son and heir Yohachiro, living out another twenty years before peacefully passing away at the age of 87."
    Britt Nichols
    Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo® USA Shibu

    AiTe wa Baka Ja Nai

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    Default Clarification

    Let me clarify one point- I am taking for granted the implication that I am speaking of the formation of a ryu out of "nothing." Obviously many ryu were formed by men who trained in a ryu, then founded their own. This is not what i am talking about.

    Light Samurai- I understand what you are saying, but let me ask you this- how much faith would you put in some technique you made up and practiced with your friend? When you sit around and make up techniques, you tend to do so from an intellectual perspective. And, as anyone who has endured severe training can tell you, what makes sense intellectually doesn't always work, and what works doesn't always make sense intellectually. This is in part because battle is not a purely intellectual thing. The origin of Seigan no Kamae was NOT some guy going, "Hey...if I put the tip of my sword to his eyes, I can use that to manipulate him and control his ability to yada yada yada." No, the origin of Seigan no kamae was a guy on a battlefield freaking out when someone came to kill him and fearfully, instinctively, shoving his sword towards the guys face and doing his damndest to keep it there as the guy tried to move around it so he could cut down. To be more accurate, it was some caveman putting his hand in another cavemans face to keep him away. Kamae and kata's ROOTS are not intellectual, they are instinctive. And its a good thing, otherwise no one would get good. It is just too hard to replace instinct and involuntary response. Now training and refining it.....teaching you to take that instinct to put your sword right up in someones face and refine it back to keeping the tip at his eyes while handeling your sword such that you can still attack....that is doable. The reason most martial artists can't defend themselves in a fight is precisely because they train intellectually. Kata are not just physical exercises, but full-scale combat dramas played out realistically. That means they include all aspects of combat, including (and especially) psychological. And man's psyche is definetly not completely intellectual, especially when he is killing and defending his life.

    Arnold Davies

  7. #7
    Light Samurai Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by arnold11
    Let me clarify one point- I am taking for granted the implication that I am speaking of the formation of a ryu out of "nothing." Obviously many ryu were formed by men who trained in a ryu, then founded their own. This is not what i am talking about.

    Light Samurai- I understand what you are saying, but let me ask you this- how much faith would you put in some technique you made up and practiced with your friend? When you sit around and make up techniques, you tend to do so from an intellectual perspective. And, as anyone who has endured severe training can tell you, what makes sense intellectually doesn't always work, and what works doesn't always make sense intellectually. This is in part because battle is not a purely intellectual thing. The origin of Seigan no Kamae was NOT some guy going, "Hey...if I put the tip of my sword to his eyes, I can use that to manipulate him and control his ability to yada yada yada." No, the origin of Seigan no kamae was a guy on a battlefield freaking out when someone came to kill him and fearfully, instinctively, shoving his sword towards the guys face and doing his damndest to keep it there as the guy tried to move around it so he could cut down. To be more accurate, it was some caveman putting his hand in another cavemans face to keep him away. Kamae and kata's ROOTS are not intellectual, they are instinctive. And its a good thing, otherwise no one would get good. It is just too hard to replace instinct and involuntary response. Now training and refining it.....teaching you to take that instinct to put your sword right up in someones face and refine it back to keeping the tip at his eyes while handeling your sword such that you can still attack....that is doable. The reason most martial artists can't defend themselves in a fight is precisely because they train intellectually. Kata are not just physical exercises, but full-scale combat dramas played out realistically. That means they include all aspects of combat, including (and especially) psychological. And man's psyche is definetly not completely intellectual, especially when he is killing and defending his life.

    Arnold Davies
    Thank you for that. =) I think I really needed that, and your method does eem better then just sitting down and thinking.

    Peace.

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    Default Why do martial arts work?

    My pleasure- it helps me to think this out. Whenever new people come to our dojo, I ask them: Do you think this martial art will help you learn to defend yourself? They of course answer yes. I then ask- Why? That usually stumps people for a while. Eventually they give an answer- usually that "it teaches you how to move your body and recieve attacks without being hurt and counterattack- it teaches moves to stop your opponent, etc." Then I ask the kicker questions- "So...why don't you just make up your own? I mean...why come and learn some method when you could just go home, have a friend punch at you and figure it out? Why not make up your own moves?"

    That one tends to take them a while ;p

    Arnold Davies

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck.Gordon
    Most warriors (being the grunts) got handed a spear and drilled.

    'Right lads, stay in formation, now ...'

    'STEP'.
    'Parry'.
    'THRUST'.
    'Twist'.
    'Pull'.
    But then the question becomes, how did they determine it should be step/parry/thrust/twist/pull? Why not parry/step/twist/pull? And yes, they probably practiced all combinations, but my point is this- the army teaches basic hand to hand (or did before they started on their BJJ kick). How did they know which techniques to teach and which not? Where did those techniques come from? Who determined what worked and what didn't? All this ties right in to the answer to the question posed in the post from me above.

  10. #10
    Light Samurai Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by arnold11
    My pleasure- it helps me to think this out. Whenever new people come to our dojo, I ask them: Do you think this martial art will help you learn to defend yourself? They of course answer yes. I then ask- Why? That usually stumps people for a while. Eventually they give an answer- usually that "it teaches you how to move your body and recieve attacks without being hurt and counterattack- it teaches moves to stop your opponent, etc." Then I ask the kicker questions- "So...why don't you just make up your own? I mean...why come and learn some method when you could just go home, have a friend punch at you and figure it out? Why not make up your own moves?"

    That one tends to take them a while ;p

    Arnold Davies
    Hahaha! Very nice!

    For me, martial arts are about discplicine, and a philosophy of Harmony, even on the outside, if it seems violent.

    Peace.

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    But do you think they work? As in, teach you combat? If so, why are they any better than something you make up for yourself. Certainly making up your own would be much more personal and you would probably get better at it faster.

    Arnold Davies

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck.Gordon
    'Dammit Aki, how many freaking times do I have to TELL you, pointy end goes toward the ENEMY! Now drop and give me fifty. Yoshi, go see the doc and get that stitched up ...'
    okay .... that was wonderful ... thank you
    bryan white

  13. #13
    Light Samurai Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by arnold11
    But do you think they work? As in, teach you combat? If so, why are they any better than something you make up for yourself. Certainly making up your own would be much more personal and you would probably get better at it faster.

    Arnold Davies
    Hello.

    Yes, the current systems do work, but maybe not in a way we'd like, and if we had our own systms, we might share things in common. Yes they work, but you should always broaden your view beyond Self-Defense to philosophy, and other things.

    Peace.

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    Light Samurai- I'm not arguing that there is more to martial arts than combat. I think anyone that practices martial arts for a prolongued period of time discovers this. Those that don't, are kinda wacked. However, for the sake of discussion I am only focusing on combat aspect, as there are so many people ready to come out and say "classical martial arts don't work." So then again I reiterate the question- Do classical martial arts work? Why? Why wouldn't it be better to make up your own martial arts system?

  15. #15
    Light Samurai Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by arnold11
    Light Samurai- I'm not arguing that there is more to martial arts than combat. I think anyone that practices martial arts for a prolongued period of time discovers this. Those that don't, are kinda wacked. However, for the sake of discussion I am only focusing on combat aspect, as there are so many people ready to come out and say "classical martial arts don't work." So then again I reiterate the question- Do classical martial arts work? Why? Why wouldn't it be better to make up your own martial arts system?
    Hehe, I can clearly see you want something more indepth.

    Yes, they work. Why? I'm not to sure, honestly. I'll have to get back to you on that. It just makes sense, and is excuted according to leverage, etc.

    I WILL get back to you on this point, after pondering it more.

    Peace.

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