interesting discussion

[Bambi]

Taken from the "MTripp sez there is no jujutsu thread" in the judo section of the underground forum at http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/foru...fm?forum_id=28

Klif wrote:
"John, try not to get too involved in the gathering of idiots at e-budo.com. The so-called "traditional" martial arts found is this country are full of frauds, criminals, fakes, brainwashed dolts, and those that try to imerse themselves in the fantasy of dressing and acting Japanese"

Despite the above quote it's quite an interesting discussion however most of the participant's seem to adamantly believe that Japanese/koryu jujutsu was practiced only through kata against compliant partners...

"Lacking ANY form of randori or shiai those traditional (jujutsu) systems can not advance into the modern world"

"Of course there is "jujutsu"; just like you can so see the reenactment of those civil war battles. BUT, jujutsu as a living progressing martial art? Nope; sorry but that just isn't the case. "

I thought you folk might like the right to reply..

Just don't go starting some kinda interboard forum arashi pleaase?

[John Lindsey]

Oh my…I do take offense to the idiot comment. I strongly feel that anyone who spends time here will clearly see the quality and scope of the discussions is by far the best such message board around. All such boards have a certain degree of negativity due the fact that we rely on members (idiots or not) to respond to the discussions. In the time e-budo has been online, we have seen a rise in “budo boards” and I like to say that we lead the way for others to follow.

[Ruediger]

I'm "proud" to be an idiot..

[Margaret Lo]

Members - there is only one way to settle such an insult!

Trial by Combat

Each board must select a champion (composed of a team of 3), pick a topic to be posted on its own Arena and let's get rrrreaadddyy to rrrrumbllle!!!

No holds barred. Since this is a war of words, I propose Earl Hartman for the actual delivery, Joe Svinth to provide factual defenses, and I would be delighted to compose parodies, or provide sarcasm where wit fails.

M

[Edited by Margaret Lo on 11-29-2000 at 01:22 PM]

[Cady Goldfield]

...And I'd be happy to provide blatant arrogance and rudeness!

CG

[Margaret Lo]

Cady - I think the honors for blatant arrogance and rudeness goes to the writer at the other board. Would you settle for cranky and incorrigible?

M

[shinbushi]

The MMA crowd has no respect for classical or traditional JMA or CMA. If it is has not been "proven" in the ring they think it is worthless. The board on defend.net is also very anti-traditionalist. (better looking board than the underground though)

[Edited by shinbushi on 11-29-2000 at 01:57 PM]

[Cady Goldfield]

Originally posted by Margaret Lo
Cady - I think the honors for blatant arrogance and rudeness goes to the writer at the other board. Would you settle for cranky and incorrigible?

M

Sure. Actually, cranky and incorrigible is more like me.

CG

[Bambi]

eehhh.. let's just lay off on the whole forum showdown idea for now..(jeez yer all a thin skinned bunch)

What's getting at me about that thread and forum is that a lot of what is touted as fact about koryu/japanese jujutsu there seems highly divergent with what I've read here and elsewhere.

fer example..

"after the ban on swords, LOTS of people attempted to change battlefield ryu-ha to something applicable to the modern times. THEY FAILED. Were this not so they would be living breathing alive systems today. In 99.9% of the cases, the people claiming to be the living masters of these long dead systems are bull shit artists of the juko-lie ilk that are feeding bull to the faithful with their fanciful tales of the samauri. Jujutsu as a living breathing modern system DIED in 1886 when it was defeated by Kodokan Judo. ANYONE who says otherwise if going to have a VERY hard time proving it"

Also the idea tha japanese JJ was utterly devoid of randori style training seemed incorrect to me. Not too mention about the kodokan completely cleaning house post 1886. Did'nt the fusen ryu pull one back for the old schools?

I thought some nice folk here might like the right to reply to statements about their art which seem erroneous..instead they reach for the flame thrower.. must be the classical attitude

[Nathan Scott]

Hi,

I've been called over to a couple of other boards to see stuff like this, and my first reaction is always "why waste time sifting through this stuff?"

The internet is full of instant-experts these days, and you need to be careful where you look for semi-reliable information. E-budo is definitely in the lead both in quality of contribution over all and the experience level of many of the contributors and/or moderators (myself excluded! ) Almost all of the most senior western Budoka I know of that are surf BBS' at least lurk here if not contribute occaisonally.

One board I went to was a Chinese martial arts board that had a section on Japanese Swordsmanship for some reason. The moderator was clueless, to the point of not even recognizing a basic, fundamental concept of Kendo - and furthermore far more concerned with sticking to his guns than admitting that his position may have been wrong. I feel sorry for those that follow these kinds of boards and buy into half-cocked knowledge, experience and research.

But why? It doesn't cost anything extra to come to a board like e-budo!

To quote one of my favorite post's on this BBS - "there's five minutes of my life that I'll never get back again".

Don't waste your time!

Regards,

PS. These are the same boards that constantly scan reputable boards like this to get answers and sometimes even provide linsk to the applicable threads.


[Edited by Nathan Scott on 11-29-2000 at 05:48 PM]

[Joseph Svinth]

Margaret and Cady -- what, you don't think that I'm capable of sufficient sarcasm and invective by myself?

As for the other board, remember:

1. There is considerable nationalism inherent in the study of martial arts. Thus sambo is better than judo, in the eyes of many Russians, and WWII combatives better than judo in the eyes of many Americans, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu better than judo in the eyes of many Brazilians. And we all know what Japanese would say is the best. Which is really best? Well, probably depends on who's doing it, that's my guess.

2. Which "koryu" group is actually being discussed? For example, does "Juko-lie ilk" refer to whom I think it refers? Hmm. As I recall, certain people affiliated with E-budo have equally unkind things to say about said organization. Along the same lines, isn't a certain PhD (Pile it Higher and Deeper) whose book was recently published better termed a hysterian than historian? And how about those McDojos teaching that X-ryu has Y-thousand years of history? In short, cynicism in ones so young is sad, but it says much about the state of the business of MA, if not the art.

3. If dealing with professionals, then I must ask which sword ban? Governments of all kinds throughout time have banned this weapon or that, or restricted its use solely to use on infidel and heretics. The point is not to discuss sword bans, but to state a personal belief, one more legalistic than sociological: EACH CASE IS UNIQUE! Yes, we all generalize and quantification is good, but care must be exercised.

4. Since I'm one of E-budo's brainwashed idiots, I hereby encourage any non-brainwashed person to submit revolutionary articles to EJMAS, and I'll try hard to find somewhere to fit them in.

[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 11-30-2000 at 01:38 AM]

[Richard Elias]

"Never smarten-up a chump"
D.J.Angier

[MarkF]

Ain't no one that beat me IN the ring. He's a paper chump!"

Muhammad Ali

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
Margaret and Cady -- what, you don't think that I'm capable of sufficient sarcasm and invective by myself?

[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 11-30-2000 at 01:38 AM]

Dear Joe:
I am sad to tell you the truth: that you are quite unable to summon up sarcasm and invective in place of arguments based on facts and documentation.

Truthfully Earl Hartman, Cady and myself are also weak in our abiities to summon up spurious arguments in favor of our favorite samurai fantasies. I don't think we have any samurai fantasies - not to get too personal!

We must all retreat to a Japanese house, there to close the sliding screen, sip our green tea and meditate on our senseis' words in preparation to do battle for our honorable teachers.

M

[Cady Goldfield]

Margaret, in fact I do have certain samurai fantasies, but they involve Mel Gibson getting dressed in, and then undressed from, samurai armor.

Cady

[Edited by Cady Goldfield on 11-30-2000 at 03:55 PM]